The Ultimate " So Its 2016 Now" Thread

[dabynsky]

These debates get old and tired.

1. Either major league wins count or don't. Everyone needs to decide if their is qualifications on wins or not.

2. There is no foolproof plan for winning. No route guarantees success. There are plenty of teams that have pissed away top 5 payrolls and there are plenty of teams that have built farms forever. There is parallels to both situations being successful and being a failure that match the Chicago Cubs situation.

3. Ultimately all fans of the Cubs want to both have a winning team and a good farm system. The question is how much does one sacrifice for the other because every move has a cost on both whether people want to acknowledge that or not.

4. I have stated more than once why I have faith as much as one can have in something related to baseball, volatility exists with all players whether 10 major league veterans or 16 Dominicans. Ultimately it comes down to finally committing to one approach, an offensive philosophy that I have wanted the Cubs to adopt for years, and a top down approach to organization that mimics the truly successful teams like the one the Cubs outspent for a decade but was consistently outperformed by.

5. At the end of the day, everyone wants to win and win as soon as possible. The question is how do you get to it with limited resources, e.g. players, money, wins, etc.

 

[dabynsky]

Astros GM #1.

Cubs GM #30?

I actually like what Jeff Luhnow has done for an organization that was a disaster prior to his take over. But if you want to talk about a team that is doing everything that the worst critics of the owner and front office than that would be it.

 

[mountsalami]

Actually that is not accurate or plain and simple.

It is an opinion that you wish to pass along as a fact because it supports your agenda that Theo and what is going on with the team currently is beyond questioning.

Did anyone think before last year that adding Jason Hammel, Wei-Yin Chen and several bullpen pieces would make Baltimore a contender?

Nope.

But that doesn't mean they simple ignored the major league team and didn't even attempt to make it better. One thing you are guaranteed is that if you dont even try, you will not succeed.

And even if they feel short of being a contender, losing less than 100 games is still better than losing 100 games.

There is zero reason that a team with the resources the Cubs have should ever throw away a season in order to improve the farm system or that having a top 5 draft pick is a reasonable return for a 100 loss season or should not make every attempt possible to field the best team they can every season.

If you really think the last two years are the best possible teams the Cubs could have fielded, well there is not much anyone can say to educate you.

There must be some unwritten law to "rebuilding" I'm not aware of. They still get to draft and decide to keep the prospects they want. Makes no sense just to "concentrate" on spects only when every team gets draft picks and an "allowance" to spend on international, bare-footed, stick ball champions.

I could give a rats ass if they tore down the straw hut in the Dominican and replaced it with one made out of wood. :fap:

The last two years NOTHING was added to improve the ML ball club. The incredible signing of Action Jackson was NOT an improvement. The Mighty Epstein was, once again, out played at the poker table when trying to sign Annibal Sanchez. They must have felt like they had to sign somebody. Once again......Their own stupidity is their own worst enemy. If they are not trying to tank seasons. Then Thoyer should be shit canned because they have blown millions on pure garbage and are OBVIOUSLY very poor judges of talent.

But with drips like Keith Law in their back pockets......
I'm sure the masses will continue to salivate all over FailStein's balls.

 

[Jntg4]

There must be some unwritten law to "rebuilding" I'm not aware of. They still get to draft and decide to keep the prospects they want. Makes no sense just to "concentrate" on spects only when every team gets draft picks and an "allowance" to spend on international, bare-footed, stick ball champions.

I could give a rats ass if they tore down the straw hut in the Dominican and replaced it with one made out of wood. :fap:

The last two years NOTHING was added to improve the ML ball club. The incredible signing of Action Jackson was NOT an improvement. The Mighty Epstein was, once again, out played at the poker table when trying to sign Annibal Sanchez. They must have felt like they had to sign somebody. Once again......Their own stupidity is their own worst enemy. If they are not trying to tank seasons. Then Thoyer should be shit canned because they have blown millions on pure garbage and are OBVIOUSLY very poor judges of talent.

But with drips like Keith Law in their back pockets......
I'm sure the masses will continue to salivate all over FailStein's balls.

Rizzo trade? Or would you prefer to see more LaHair? Maybe Xavier Nady?

 

[mountsalami]

Rizzo trade? Or would you prefer to see more LaHair? Maybe Xavier Nady?

I'd prefer to see more of...Paul ManHole'm, Germhole Contraception, Iham BeefStew-Shart, Chris Volva, Val-No-Bueno, Blowden, Camp, Feldman, Baker, Jackson, DeJesus, Schietholez, The Solar Flare, Terd Wood, Germano, Hairston, etc etc..... Since we want to believe these were some great signings for the future and the ML team. Wonder how the draft picks he's made will work out for him. Can't seem to judge talent at the ML level on a "budget" during the "rebuilding years."

The Rizzo trade has not materialized. He hasn't played one full ML season. You want to marry him before you ask him out.

 

[KBisBack!]

Rizzo trade? Or would you prefer to see more LaHair? Maybe Xavier Nady?

Cause those were the only two other options?? Or the only two options that fit your agenda?

I'd have preferred Prince Fielder personally. How has he done in Detroit so far?? A bit better than Rizzo has?? Yep.

Plus having signed Fielder you could have kept Cashner. It isn't like guys who can throw 100 grow on trees or the major league team right now has no problems at all with the closer role.

Rizzo had a great about 50 first AB's.

Since then he has been major league average at best.

In the second half of last season (319 PA, a very fair sample size) he had an OPS of .764 which would place him 17th out of 22 1B who had enough AB's to qualify for the batting title. Rizzo did not, so he was the 22nd player. There were only 21 who qualified before anyone starts throwing their sippy cups (man I missed that phrase!) about my stats being wrong.

That .764 ranks behind the likes of Ike Davis, Garrett Jones, Nick Swisher and barely ahead of Jordan Pacheco and Yonder Alonso.

That .764 ranked behind better young 1B sluggers Freddie Freeman and Paul Goldschmidt yet the Theo slurpers would have you believe that Anthony Rizzo is next coming of Lou Gehrig.

A .764 OPS from a 1B can be had almost any offseason in the FA market.

Adam LaRoche had an .853 OPS last year and only landed a two year $24M contract.

But here comes the part where the most profitable team with the third most revenue in the sport can't afford a two year $24M contract.

Holy cow, is this guy willrust Jr?? Is he going to tell me next that it would have been a good idea to trade A-Ram for Brandon Wood or that teams don't trade Player A for Player B because they think Player B is better??

And he still hasn't provided ANY facts to support his claim that the article in the Sun-Times was grossly inaccurate like he claims.

 

[Chris J]

Well Dews since youre all knowing tell me who are the top GM's? Cashman has a lot of money, guess he isnt that good. He paid for Arod who hasnt been all that great in NY, he had Jeter on the roster already.

The Angels GM is no good, hes spending loads of money and not producing. How can you judge based on how much the guy has to spend? Just becuase you have a lot of money doesnt mean youre not smart.

Now lets go through this. Who here predicted that Carl Crawford was going to be awful in a Red Sox uniform? 5 out of his previous 6 years he hit over .300 and his OBP was close to .400 every year. Brought in Adrian Gonzo who had a MVP like season in 2011. Yes, he did over pay for Lackey, ill give you that.

He took a shot with Dice K. Who knows how he would be if he never got hurt in 09. I mean a 18-3 record with a 2.90 ERA in pretty impressive. But hey ya know, believe what you want. Ken Williams and Rick Hahahn are so much better

 

[mountsalami]

(man I missed that phrase!)

LOL. Always nice to be able to "hike up yer skirt" a bit.

 

[DewsSox79]

So now it's 2016

Who is better than?

loaded question and very much a read between the lines post that you believe he is the best.

 

[dabynsky]

loaded question and very much a read between the lines post that you believe he is the best.

There you go jumping to some pretty big conclusions. Since you asked me, the only guy I have clearly ahead of everyone else is Friedman. I like Epstein as I've made clear, and I think he is a very good FO type.

Now you jumped on someone saying he isn't top 10. So clearly you have 10 guys that are better. I merely asked for you to state who those guys are.

 

[DewsSox79]

So now it's 2016

Well Dews since youre all knowing tell me who are the top GM's? Cashman has a lot of money, guess he isnt that good. He paid for Arod who hasnt been all that great in NY, he had Jeter on the roster already.

The Angels GM is no good, hes spending loads of money and not producing. How can you judge based on how much the guy has to spend? Just becuase you have a lot of money doesnt mean youre not smart.

Now lets go through this. Who here predicted that Carl Crawford was going to be awful in a Red Sox uniform? 5 out of his previous 6 years he hit over .300 and his OBP was close to .400 every year. Brought in Adrian Gonzo who had a MVP like season in 2011. Yes, he did over pay for Lackey, ill give you that.

He took a shot with Dice K. Who knows how he would be if he never got hurt in 09. I mean a 18-3 record with a 2.90 ERA in pretty impressive. But hey ya know, believe what you want. Ken Williams and Rick Hahahn are so much better

first off kool aid boy, I never said anything about the white sox, but again your hatred for them comes out in yet another pointless post. I never said anything about cashman either. What some are doing are evaluating GMs by WS titles while ignoring important variables such as payroll, inherited talent. There is ZERO evidence that Theo can take a team from bare bones and built a championship let alone a contender every year. If you want to buy in 100% thats fine, you are entitled to that, just hope you are not holding your breath. but hey whitesoxzzz and stuffzz

 

[DewsSox79]

So now it's 2016

There you go jumping to some pretty big conclusions. Since you asked me, the only guy I have clearly ahead of everyone else is Friedman. I like Epstein as I've made clear, and I think he is a very good FO type.

Now you jumped on someone saying he isn't top 10. So clearly you have 10 guys that are better. I merely asked for you to state who those guys are.

I should have rephrased as I feel its hard to judge and specifically rank GMs especially ones who havent had the obstacles of this rebuild which is what it is...an extreme demolish than build. Im a fan of Tampa,Tex,Kc,stl,cin etc. im on cell phone as i would expand more if i was on pc

 

[dabynsky]

I should have rephrased as I feel its hard to judge and specifically rank GMs especially ones who havent had the obstacles of this rebuild which is what it is...an extreme demolish than build. Im a fan of Tampa,Tex,Kc,stl,cin etc. im on cell phone as i would expand more if i was on pc

That's fair. I would probably rank Epstein/Hoyer as somewhere in the 5-15 range myself, but I agree it is difficult to rank them. Like I said I think Friedman is pretty clearly number 1 given the resources he has worked with and the consistentcy of that team. I would throw in a few teams you didn't mention, Toronto, Oakland for example, and probably drop a few but I think we are in the same ballpark.

 

[patg006]

Rizzo trade? Or would you prefer to see more LaHair? Maybe Xavier Nady?

Right now Rizzo is on pace for 200 strikouts. He seriously needed help in the middle of the line up to protect him and once again Theo balked at adding help for the sake of hating mid round draft picks.

Jntg4; theres no reason to slurp the hand that feeds you bullshit. There's no reason a top revenue team in MLB should be run like the Marlins.

I've told myself this upcoming offseason is Theo's make it or break it for me. He has to get a big fish. Its required. A big trade, a big signing or two. He will have the money. And even the Nationals spent money on Jason Werth during their "rebuilding." How about we stop signing the Scott Feldmans, and acquire David Price? Rays cant pay him 7 years 180 million. But guess who can? Epstein. Get Price, pay him; get 2 hitters (Cory Hart and , lose Dejesus, lose Valbuena and Iham Stewshart.

Price, Shark, and EJax is a more formidable rotation than anything Scott Feldman is near......and its a reason to go to a game. I dont want to sit around hoping Pierced Johnson becomes an A-OK #5 starter. I dont want to sit on fancy lottery tickets. I want a team put in place that doesnt look like dogshit, and doesnt make pitchers like Derek Holland look like first ballot hall of famer.

and just because its fucking hilarious; :fap:

 

[X]

Lol, this thread is just comical now.

Cubs fans: "It's ok. Let's see what happens."

Sox fans: "No it's not ok! Theo is screwing the cubs!"

The words change. but it's been 80 posts of that, to this point.

 

[mountsalami]

Right now Rizzo is on pace for 200 strikouts. He seriously needed help in the middle of the line up to protect him and once again Theo balked at adding help for the sake of hating mid round draft picks.

Jntg4; theres no reason to slurp the hand that feeds you bullshit. There's no reason a top revenue team in MLB should be run like the Marlins.

I've told myself this upcoming offseason is Theo's make it or break it for me. He has to get a big fish. Its required. A big trade, a big signing or two. He will have the money. And even the Nationals spent money on Jason Werth during their "rebuilding." How about we stop signing the Scott Feldmans, and acquire David Price? Rays cant pay him 7 years 180 million. But guess who can? Epstein. Get Price, pay him; get 2 hitters (Cory Hart and , lose Dejesus, lose Valbuena and Iham Stewshart.

Price, Shark, and EJax is a more formidable rotation than anything Scott Feldman is near......and its a reason to go to a game. I dont want to sit around hoping Pierced Johnson becomes an A-OK #5 starter. I dont want to sit on fancy lottery tickets. I want a team put in place that doesnt look like dogshit, and doesnt make pitchers like Derek Holland look like first ballot hall of famer.

and just because its fucking hilarious; :fap:

:fap:
What do you mean Rizzo is on pace for 200 strikeouts ? I thought that Rob Deer was hired to assist in plate discipline. Wonder what the entire team is on pace to set ?

Looks like a line-up of true all- or- nothing power hitters at this point. Eight Ryan Howard's just waiting for the right pitch. Just wait till Rob starts getting them to connect.

:fap: :fap::fap::fap::fap::fap::fap:

 

[patg006]

:fap:
What do you mean Rizzo is on pace for 200 strikeouts ? I thought that Rob Deer was hired to assist in plate discipline. Wonder what the entire team is on pace to set ?

Looks like a line-up of true all- or- nothing power hitters at this point. Eight Ryan Howard's just waiting for the right pitch. Just wait till Rob starts getting them to connect.

:fap: :fap::fap::fap::fap::fap::fap:

Watch out Salami, you may get a wicked case of Iham Stewshart grade jerkers elbow with all that work you put in. Hell I'd give you a shot at third.

:fap::fap::fap::fap::fap::fap::bizarro:

 

[patg006]

Well on the bright side of this site, I dont have to call people out on slurping when I can just :fap:

 

[MRubio52]

You know why I hate the over the top Theo hate? You really want to know why I find it completely stupid and useless? Because it detracts the very sensible middle ground to the argument for me.

I do like Theo, I do have questions about how he plans to move forward now that most of his bag of tricks were negated by the CBA, and I do have questions about certain roster moves but all those questions get ignored because OMG HE INHERITED A 90 WIN TEAM AND THAT'S THE ONLY REASON HE WON AND SHIT AND THEN HE HANDED OUT BAD CONTRACTS AND THAT'S WHY HE SUCKS BECAUSE NO OTHER GM IN HISTORY HAS EVER GIVEN OUT BAD MONEY TO OLD PLAYERS!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!111!!!!!!

Essentially to point out why the FA route won't work defaults to defending Theo which defaults to :fap::fap::fap:ing over Theo.

The world isn't binary, opinions have all sorts of shades of gray, and it's possible to believe in a method and still be objective about what's going on.

So.

But what about the Cubs and whyfor go after Edwin Jackson and what's the deal with not signing FA's and all this other bullshit?

Look at the FA lists and tell me who the **** you would sign to a big fucking money deal? I've looked hard for solutions the quick and easy way and they aren't there.

You know why?

Teams are drafting players, developing players, and signing those players to 10 year extensions worth big fucking money and they aren't hitting the market leaving FA to guys like Wilson fucking Betemit and Mark fucking DeRosa.

Building via free agency is a last gasp route of the desperate. You NEED to hit on your own guys. I'm sorry. That's why Chris Sale got paid. That's why Verlander got paid. That's why Patient Zero, Evan Longoria got paid.

All this other shit, "prospects are SCARY OMG," is noise. Of course prospects are scary. You still need to hit on them to have a team worth a damn.

PS: How does one rank GM's? Seriously? I don't rank GM's because I have no idea in what context they make their moves. I'm impressed by some guys, other guys I'm confused by (looking at you Towers), but do we have enough information to do a 1-10 ranking on GM's? The reason I like Theo in any regard is because I like what he's done with the Cubs scouting department, international market, and development facilities. I mean seriously the Cubs were so far below par in those departments before it's refreshing to hear about the front office talk about developing metrics and marrying them to scouts to better evaluate talent.

PPS: Sucks to lose 100, and I get that. It's also a time of change for a franchise that for too long has been conservative. Lot's of things are different now, and I respect that.

PPPS:

About Boston. 2004 was a well built team before Theo made moves to acquire guys like Bellhorn and Bill Mueller, which I know aren't flashy names, but they were nice finds that added 800 OPS to a roster and essentially made it the most taxing damn lineup to go through in the AL. 2007 featured some more Theo acquisitions but also some moves made in part by current Cubs GM Jed Hoyer. The team also featured home grown talent, some of which was Cherington, some was Theo, and well, you can make all the excuses you want about being down in the ALCS but they won 96 damn games and won the WS.

 

[MRubio52]

:fap:
What do you mean Rizzo is on pace for 200 strikeouts ? I thought that Rob Deer was hired to assist in plate discipline. Wonder what the entire team is on pace to set ?

Looks like a line-up of true all- or- nothing power hitters at this point. Eight Ryan Howard's just waiting for the right pitch. Just wait till Rob starts getting them to connect.

:fap: :fap::fap::fap::fap::fap::fap:

CASTRO=RYAN HOWARD APPROACH!!!!!11!!!1!!!!!!