THN picks the Hawks to lose in the SCF to the Caps

[Ton]

I agree 100% with Variable.



Anyone knocking Ovechkin for the CAPS not showing up in the playoffs needs to get their eyes checked.



Now, here are Ovechkin's stats in the games the Caps have won this past playoffs:



10 shots, 4 goals, 4 assists, +7 in 20:28 avg. minutes



And here are his stats in the games the Caps have lost this past playoff series:



14 shots, 1 goal, 1 assists, -2, in 25:36 avg. minutes.



What does this tell me? Apparently for the Caps to win, Oveckin needs to score every game. Is that really his fault? No!



There is only one, or maybe two players in the entire world I would take over Ovechkin. He is not the Caps problem, 37GP 25G 25A 50P -- very very few can say they have put up those types of numbers in the playoffs, and in the playoffs every game is a big game -- end of story.



Crosby had a supporting cast... praising him for winning the Cup for the Pens and saying Ovechkin fucked it up for the Caps is just that -- fucked up. Crosby didn't score every game either, but he had players around him that picked up the slack for him too.

 

[dlrob315]

Brouwer can impact other players or he could join their culture!



I don't think Brouwer is that type of leader...remember Brouwer is a guy who can't compartmentalize, that showed when he had his struggles when his dad was sick. And yes I know there are many people that would struggle under those conditions. But the good leaders use their profession to get those things off their mind....they use it as their get away to the real world.



Brouwer has never shown the ability to focus over a 82 game schedule for whatever reason, so I see him fitting in perfectly with a team that has not been able to sustain good play when it comes to playoff time!

 

[R K]

You can also remember him being on the ice when they lost that game. Look, don't take that as a knock against him, because that's the point I'm making. There's only so much one player can do in the game. There's only so much you can make up for, there's only so much slack you can pick up for your team, there's only so many mistakes you can cover up while you're on the ice.



Some people are putting Toews up above Crosby and/or Ovechkin, and that's fine, I don't have a problem with people thinking that way, but that should have been seen as an example, much like with Ovechkin, of one player (the best in the league as seen by some) not being able to do everything, even when he's playing as hard as he can (and maybe not seeing the evidence of it on the stat sheet like in the SC Final the year before, Crosby being another example in that).

Who was on the ice when they lost the game? His great pass to Sharp would have won the game had Sharp burried it. Again Star players show up when in need during the playoffs. Ovechkin has plain not. Points or not. When they become "clutch points" I might change my opinion.



Bring up another example? How about the Olympics? Where was Ovechkin? Exactly. Mean while, Kane, Toews, and even crosby were HUGE for their teams in "clutch" moments.

 

[Variable]

Crosby had a supporting cast... praising him for winning the Cup for the Pens and saying Ovechkin fucked it up for the Caps is just that -- fucked up. Crosby didn't score every game either, but he had players around him that picked up the slack for him too.

All you have to do is look at the box scores. Crosby didn't register a single point in their last 3 games against Detroit when they won the Cup, Malkin won the Conn Smythe. I think overall he only had 3 points in that 7 game series. But he's seen as "coming through when the team needed him the most" as opposed to Ovechkin and his inability to make up for the...make up....of his team every single game.



It gets kinda ridiculous. How many times have we heard "Oh if Bolland were playing from the start in that series, it would've been different, it would've been this or that,etc." And I agree with that, it probably would've been a different series. They might've won it and who knows what happens from there, especially in the NHL playoffs. They could've gotten back to the Final for all we know.



But it's yet another example of a factor out of the control of any one player. The make up or the lack of defense on Ovechkin's team is out of his control. Bolland not playing is out of Toews' control. Again, going back to the view of it being a team sport, a team effort for success in the playoffs. Yet we don't judge it on that basis as much people like to preach that aspect of it.

 

[R K]

Brouwer can impact other players or he could join their culture!



I don't think Brouwer is that type of leader...remember Brouwer is a guy who can't compartmentalize, that showed when he had his struggles when his dad was sick. And yes I know there are many people that would struggle under those conditions. But the good leaders use their profession to get those things off their mind....they use it as their get away to the real world.



Brouwer has never shown the ability to focus over a 82 game schedule for whatever reason, so I see him fitting in perfectly with a team that has not been able to sustain good play when it comes to playoff time!

But in his defense unless massively physical he was in Q's dog house. Being thrown on all four lines at times during the season, AND during individual games.



Brouwer is not a top 6 foward IMO unless he's surrounded by players with talent like Toews and Kane. Will be interesting to see him on a line with Ovechkin. They are both hitting machines.

 

[R K]

All you have to do is look at the box scores. Crosby didn't register a single point in their last 3 games against Detroit when they won the Cup, Malkin won the Conn Smythe. I think overall he only had 3 points in that 7 game series. But he's seen as "coming through when the team needed him the most" as opposed to Ovechkin and his inability to make up for the...make up....of his team every single game.



It gets kinda ridiculous. How many times have we heard "Oh if Bolland were playing from the start in that series, it would've been different, it would've been this or that,etc." And I agree with that, it probably would've been a different series. They might've won it and who knows what happens from there, especially in the NHL playoffs. They could've gotten back to the Final for all we know.



But it's yet another example of a factor out of the control of any one player. The make up or the lack of defense on Ovechkin's team is out of his control. Bolland not playing is out of Toews' control. Again, going back to the view of it being a team sport, a team effort for success in the playoffs. Yet we don't judge it on that basis as much people like to preach that aspect of it.

Box scores don't mean dick. They say nothing about "clutch, momentum" changing points. Nothing.



And Bolland AND Sharp not in the line up leaving the team with TWO Centers, certainly means a boat load. Especially when JT was one of TWO Centers left playing on the team. Not to mention he was beat to shit as well. Toews doesn't have to defend himself his Olympic Gold, Con Smyth, Jr Golds, all speak for themselves. LOL



Your argument seems kind of rediculous.

 

[R K]

I agree 100% with Variable.



Anyone knocking Ovechkin for the CAPS not showing up in the playoffs needs to get their eyes checked.



Now, here are Ovechkin's stats in the games the Caps have won this past playoffs:



10 shots, 4 goals, 4 assists, +7 in 20:28 avg. minutes



And here are his stats in the games the Caps have lost this past playoff series:



14 shots, 1 goal, 0 assists, -2, in 25:36 avg. minutes.



What does this tell me? Apparently for the Caps to win, Oveckin needs to score every game. Is that really his fault? No!



There is only one, or maybe two players in the entire world I would take over Ovechkin. He is not the Caps problem, 37GP 25G 25A 50P -- very very few can say they have put up those types of numbers in the playoffs, and in the playoffs every game is a big game -- end of story.



Crosby had a supporting cast... praising him for winning the Cup for the Pens and saying Ovechkin fucked it up for the Caps is just that -- fucked up. Crosby didn't score every game either, but he had players around him that picked up the slack for him too.

How many game winners does Ovi have in the playoffs? How many times were the Cap down where he had numerous times to tie and or win the game, did he?



I've watched most of the Caps games because they are a team I like and I have yet to see it. If you ask most Cap fans, like the one that posted in this thread, you'd get their feelings. Guess they don't know their own team and or players.



Top 5 player in the world, sure. Players I'd take over him hands down?



Crosby

Toews

Stamkos



There's three right there. In a heart beat.

 

[Ton]

Box scores don't mean dick. They say nothing about "clutch, momentum" changing points. Nothing.



And Bolland AND Sharp not in the line up leaving the team with TWO Centers, certainly means a boat load. Especially when JT was one of TWO Centers left playing on the team. Not to mention he was beat to shit as well. Toews doesn't have to defend himself his Olympic Gold, Con Smyth, Jr Golds, all speak for themselves. LOL



Your argument seems kind of rediculous.

So in Toews case, they couldn't win the series against the Canucks because of the supporting cast, but Ovechkin can't use the same excuse?



Olympic Gold, Jr Golds, Stanley Cup, none of them can be won by an individual.



Put Ovechkin with a good supporting cast and he will win those accomplishments. He can't do it himself.



Just would like to add, this is a great debate, can't wait for the puck to drop!

 

[R K]

So in Toews case, they couldn't win the series against the Canucks because of the supporting cast, but Ovechkin can't use the same excuse?



Olympic Gold, Jr Golds, Stanley Cup, none of them can be won by an individual.



Put Ovechkin with a good supporting cast and he will win those accomplishments. He can't do it himself.

They didn't win the series. Wasn't due to Toews. His clutch goal gave them the momentum to win. And his fatastic pass to Sharp, who didn't bury the puck would have put them over the top.



Again Ovechkin has not demonstrated those types of goals. I've watched most of his playoff games too. So what he gets points, when he gets them and it changes the game, I'll change my opinion.



team game or not Star players produce in CLUTCH moments.



I'd still take any of those three to build my team around long before Ovechkin.



And you should go back to at least one of those JR Golds. He won it by himself in the Shoot out. Again Clutch!

 

[Ton]

How many game winners does Ovi have in the playoffs? How many times were the Cap down where he had numerous times to tie and or win the game, did he?



I've watched most of the Caps games because they are a team I like and I have yet to see it. If you ask most Cap fans, like the one that posted in this thread, you'd get their feelings. Guess they don't know their own team and or players.



Top 5 player in the world, sure. Players I'd take over him hands down?



Crosby

Toews

Stamkos



There's three right there. In a heart beat.

I think Stamkos is arguable, I think I would have a tough choice between picking him or Ovechkin if I had to start a team. Regardless you're proving right there that even though Ovechkin is a great player, he can't do it by himself and like anyone else, any great player needs a great supporting cast surrounding him. Put Ovechkin with the right team and he will win it all, he's never had that opportunity in his career yet.

 

[R K]

again he's never been clutch in the playoffs. I'll wait for you to post proof he has. No one is saying he's not a great player. He has yet to be a clutch player when it counts most. That IMO is over rated.



There's clutch for you.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYM-4aqJnm8

 

[Variable]

When do points in the playoffs magically go from not clutch to clutch? That's what I want to know. That just sounds like a convenient way to excuse and wipe away all the points Ovechkin has put up in the playoffs and say they don't matter. They don't matter? Who on that team is taking over or is capable of taking over that point load then? He's the only reason they are where they are, he's the only reason they have a fighting chance, he's already won 2 Hart Trophies this early in his career for a reason. Because if there was someone else, like say EVGENI MALKIN aka one of the best players in the league, then the Caps would've won a Cup. Or at least played in a Final. There is no one who can cover that on the Caps, at least no one has proven it yet.



Ovechkin has 4 game winners in 37 playoff games and has been the, or among the, leader(s) in game winning goals during the season pretty much since he's entered the league. Crosby has 5 in 62 games, Toews has 5 in 46 games. When you talk about the Caps problems in the playoffs, Ovechkin is low on that list if on it at all. They are only ever even in the discussion of Cup favorites because of him.

 

[Ton]

They didn't win the series. Wasn't due to Toews. His clutch goal gave them the momentum to win. And his fatastic pass to Sharp, who didn't bury the puck would have put them over the top.



Again Ovechkin has not demonstrated those types of goals. I've watched most of his playoff games too. So what he gets points, when he gets them and it changes the game, I'll change my opinion.



team game or not Star players produce in CLUTCH moments.



I'd still take any of those three to build my team around long before Ovechkin.



And you should go back to at least one of those JR Golds. He won it by himself in the Shoot out. Again Clutch!

That fantastic pass didn't go in though, just like many of Ovechkin's great plays were never finished to give them the win either. That's a wash.



If you are saying that Ovechkins points have not impacted a game, I think you are wrong. Again 4G and 4A in the wins they had... are you saying none of those changed the look of the game? I look at that and to me it looks like Ovy certainly impacted those games enough for the win. Ovechkin is one of the best impact players in the game, top 5 no doubt, arguably top 3. If you think a top 5 player in the game can't win the Cup with the right supporting cast then I think you are wrong, without Ovys points the Caps are swept in every series the past 4 years or so. He at least gives them a great shot, unfortunately for him, he has no one else with him to help him win.



Here was the Cap's problem last year:



Semin: 4G 2A in 9 games



Backstrom: 0G, 2A in 9 games



Green: 1G, 5A in 8 games



Knuble: 2G, 0A in 6 games



Those guys have to step it up this year otherwise the Caps will be in trouble again.

 

[Ton]

When do points in the playoffs magically go from not clutch to clutch? That's what I want to know. That just sounds like a convenient way to excuse and wipe away all the points Ovechkin has put up in the playoffs and say they don't matter. They don't matter? Who on that team is taking over or is capable of taking over that point load then? Because if there was someone, like say EVGENI MALKIN aka one of the best players in the league, then the Caps would've won a Cup. Or at least played in a Final. There is no one who can cover that on the Caps, at least no one has proven it yet.



Ovechkin has 4 game winners in 37 playoff games and has been the, or among the, leader(s) in game winning goals during the season since he's entered the league. Crosby has 5 in 62 games, Toews has 5 in 46 games. When you talk about the Caps problems in the playoffs, Ovechkin is low on that list if on it at all. They are only ever even in the discussion of Cup favorites because of him.

Great statement. Until they add the right pieces around him, they will never get to the Finals. No great player would ever win anything without a great supporting cast. Ovechkin should be the last of the Caps worries.



To compare, both Crosby and Ovechkin have put together near the same pace of points per game during the Playoffs. The only difference has been the teams they've played on.



Also, Ovy's teams are 5-4 in elimination games, is that bad? I don't think so. To me, that is the team failing more than Ovechkin, he is the only reason they've ever even gotten to those elimination games, let alone winning them.

 

[dlrob315]

When do points in the playoffs magically go from not clutch to clutch? That's what I want to know. That just sounds like a convenient way to excuse and wipe away all the points Ovechkin has put up in the playoffs and say they don't matter. They don't matter? Who on that team is taking over or is capable of taking over that point load then? He's the only reason they are where they are, he's the only reason they have a fighting chance, he's already won 2 Hart Trophies this early in his career for a reason. Because if there was someone else, like say EVGENI MALKIN aka one of the best players in the league, then the Caps would've won a Cup. Or at least played in a Final. There is no one who can cover that on the Caps, at least no one has proven it yet.



Ovechkin has 4 game winners in 37 playoff games and has been the, or among the, leader(s) in game winning goals during the season pretty much since he's entered the league. Crosby has 5 in 62 games, Toews has 5 in 46 games. When you talk about the Caps problems in the playoffs, Ovechkin is low on that list if on it at all. They are only ever even in the discussion of Cup favorites because of him.

+1



Exactly, there is no such thing as clutch, good players will score, good player have the ability to score in pre-season, regular season and playoffs. And when it comes to game winners, you have to take in account the other team may have taken a lead after trailing, Ovie may have had the winning goal if the other team did out score Ovie's team! So, is the other team taking the lead solely on Ovie's shoulders? Or is it a team situation?



I look at it as Ovie gives his team a great chance with him rather than without him!

 

[R K]

That fantastic pass didn't go in though, just like many of Ovechkin's great plays were never finished to give them the win either. That's a wash.



If you are saying that Ovechkins points have not impacted a game, I think you are wrong. Again 4G and 4A in the wins they had... are you saying none of those changed the look of the game? I look at that and to me it looks like Ovy certainly impacted those games enough for the win. Ovechkin is one of the best impact players in the game, top 5 no doubt, arguably top 3. If you think a top 5 player in the game can't win the Cup with the right supporting cast then I think you are wrong, without Ovys points the Caps are swept in every series the past 4 years or so. He at least gives them a great shot, unfortunately for him, he has no one else with him to help him win.



Here was the Cap's problem last year:



Semin: 4G 2A in 9 games



Backstrom: 0G, 2A in 9 games



Green: 1G, 5A in 8 games



Knuble: 2G, 0A in 6 games



Those guys have to step it up this year otherwise the Caps will be in trouble again.

That fantastic pass most certainly did go through. It ended up right on Sharps stick.



I disagree. Oh well. I wouldnt build my team around Ovechkin if a player like Toews, Crosby or Stamkos were available.



Maybe Ovechkin just sucks as a Captain and that pressure is what it is. Sure was frustrated with his 200 shots in the playoffs last year. You must have missed most of those games.



Also looks like it's about 70/30 in this thread. Including the one Caps fan with ST's. LOL

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

That fantastic pass most certainly did go through. It ended up right on Sharps stick.



I disagree. Oh well. I wouldnt build my team around Ovechkin if a player like Toews, Crosby or Stamkos were available.



Maybe Ovechkin just sucks as a Captain and that pressure is what it is. Sure was frustrated with his 200 shots in the playoffs last year. You must have missed most of those games.



Also looks like it's about 70/30 in this thread. Including the one Caps fan with ST's. LOL

Is there something to be said that arguably the 3 top centers in the league are the 3 top players people would want to build their team around? I'm talking about Toews/Stamkos/Crosby...

 

[R K]

I think so. Although there are certain leaders I might build a team around. I don't place Ovechkin in the "leadership" category. I do with the other three you mentioned. They were bred to be leaders.



I'm not sure I'd build my team around Kane either. He's a world class talent but you don't get the "total package" from him. Kane, has clearly proven to be "clutch" though, which is the wild card. Without a doubt, no question.

 

[Ton]

That fantastic pass most certainly did go through. It ended up right on Sharps stick.



I disagree. Oh well. I wouldnt build my team around Ovechkin if a player like Toews, Crosby or Stamkos were available.



Maybe Ovechkin just sucks as a Captain and that pressure is what it is. Sure was frustrated with his 200 shots in the playoffs last year. You must have missed most of those games.



Also looks like it's about 70/30 in this thread. Including the one Caps fan with ST's. LOL

It went through, but it was not finished, is that Toews fault? No, just like Ovechkins plays were not finished -- it's not his fault. Also, doesn't looke like 70/30 in this thread, and bubble never blamed Ovechkin, he just said he shouldn't be captain.

I think so. Although there are certain leaders I might build a team around. I don't place Ovechkin in the "leadership" category. I do with the other three you mentioned. They were bred to be leaders.



I'm not sure I'd build my team around Kane either. He's a world class talent but you don't get the "total package" from him. Kane, has clearly proven to be "clutch" though, which is the wild card. Without a doubt, no question.

Ok, so basically, since the Caps do not have a great center to lead them to victory that is the problem, not Ovechkin.

 

[the canadian dream]

Toews is the guy you build around. Maybe wearing the Hawks colors a bit on that one but he is the all around player that I have always loved and you don't find guys like him every draft. No one in the league shows the drive Toews has...NO ONE!!!