THN picks the Hawks to lose in the SCF to the Caps

[Chief Walking Stick]

I think so. Although there are certain leaders I might build a team around. I don't place Ovechkin in the "leadership" category. I do with the other three you mentioned. They were bred to be leaders.



I'm not sure I'd build my team around Kane either. He's a world class talent but you don't get the "total package" from him. Kane, has clearly proven to be "clutch" though, which is the wild card. Without a doubt, no question.

Well I listed them in that order specifically Toews/Stamkos/Crosby.



Toews has all the intangibles/leadership in the world along with amazing skill to back it up.

Crosby is arguably the best player in the world but lacks maturity and other intangibles that make a good leader.

Stamkos is a hybrid of both IMO.

 

[Ton]

Well I listed them in that order specifically Toews/Stamkos/Crosby.



Toews has all the intangibles/leadership in the world along with amazing skill to back it up.

Crosby is arguably the best player in the world but lacks maturity and other intangibles that make a good leader.

Stamkos is a hybrid of both IMO.

Agreed, but is that really a knock on Ovechkin if he is placed right behind those guys? I don't think so, if anything that is a compliment. Again, with the right cast Ovy will win the Cup. Will he ever get that chance with the Caps? I don't know.



Toews has Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabs... Crosby had/has Malkin, Staal, Letang, Gonchar, Talbot, and Kunitz.... Ovechkin has Backstrom (never a playoff performer), Semin (average playoff performer), Green (average playoff performer), and Knuble (average playoff performer) and that's it. Give him good playoff cast and he makes it to the Finals - Toews and Crosby had guys that were clutch to help them out -- they didn't do it themselves and didn't score every "clutch goal". It's not like Ovechkin has never scored a clutch goal before, he has -- but he never had the cast to take it all the way.

 

[Variable]

Maybe Ovechkin just sucks as a Captain and that pressure is what it is. Sure was frustrated with his 200 shots in the playoffs last year. You must have missed most of those games.

I....ehhh huh? Wha? So...instead of the pressure of being captain personally affecting him and his play and production, it somehow manifests itself in his teammates and affects their play instead?



And with as many shots he takes, the clip at which he was going, he was shooting at 14.7 %. Which is quite a bit above average, which was 8.5 I think in last year's playoffs. Would it have stayed? Maybe, his career average in the playoffs is nearly 13 percent. But of course, I assume none of those were "momentum changing, clutch" goals.

 

[Variable]

Toews and Crosby had guys that were clutch to help them out -- they didn't do it themselves and didn't score every "clutch goal". It's not like Ovechkin has never scored a clutch goal before, he has -- but he never had the cast to take it all the way.

Take it another step to further prove the point: Between the two of them, in each of their Stanley Cup Final appearances, in 13 combined games, they scored a whopping 1 goal (Crosby). A single goal between what some believe are the two best players in the league on the biggest stage in hockey. Combined for a total of 6 points and they both got Cup rings and Toews a Conn Smythe.



Does that mean they weren't trying? Hell no. Does it mean the pressure got to them? Not necessarily. Does it mean that they weren't contributing in other ways? Of course not. Like you said, it simply means they had the team that could compensate for their struggles. They had a more complete team.



They had the team that could pick them up when they're down and/or snake bit. RK mentioned Kane, and whether he knows it or not, he's further proving our point. Kane had a huge Final, even without looking at the Cup winning goal. Had a great overall playoffs. Patrick Sharp had a HUGE goal in that game too, had a great playoffs as well. Both could be argued as the Conn Smythe winner instead of Toews. That was a team that didn't have one of the best two way forwards in the league for a better part of the season in Hossa and defensive forward in Bolland and still set franchise regular season records in points, road wins, etc. It was an amazing TEAM, they didn't need to constantly rely on any one player because they were so deep in talent that it was almost like "taking turns". If it's not Toews, it's Kane. If it's not Kane it's Sharp, or it's Hossa or Ladd or Bolland with a shortie or Versteeg.



If it's not Ovechkin it's......who? Maybe Semin? If he felt like it?

 

[R K]

It went through, but it was not finished, is that Toews fault? No, just like Ovechkins plays were not finished -- it's not his fault. Also, doesn't looke like 70/30 in this thread, and bubble never blamed Ovechkin, he just said he shouldn't be captain.







Ok, so basically, since the Caps do not have a great center to lead them to victory that is the problem, not Ovechkin.

Reading way to much into that.



I said Ovechkin was over rated. When you point out where I said that the Caps losses and woes are all due to him let me know. I'll wait.



Then I explained why I thought he was over rated. Again not saying anything about him being soley at fault for the Caps sad playoff results.



I then said I'd build my team around at least three other players over Ovechkin. Again not saying anything about him being soley at fault for the Caps sad playoff results.





As for using kane variable you neglect to point out that I used him as an example of a player I wouldn't chose first to build my "team" around. Although unlike Ovechkin Kane HAS shown up when his "team" needed him most. As pointed out by another poster in this thread. "whether he knows it or not".... LOL come now.



when we all become coaches in the NHL and play free for all you to draft Ovechkin first. I'll chose one of the other 3-4 players.

 

[R K]

I....ehhh huh? Wha? So...instead of the pressure of being captain personally affecting him and his play and production, it somehow manifests itself in his teammates and affects their play instead?



And with as many shots he takes, the clip at which he was going, he was shooting at 14.7 %. Which is quite a bit above average, which was 8.5 I think in last year's playoffs. Would it have stayed? Maybe, his career average in the playoffs is nearly 13 percent. But of course, I assume none of those were "momentum changing, clutch" goals.

Again when you point out any game 7 or when his team needed the goal the most, IE 1 goal games, dire need, win or lose, let me know. Instead just show me is shooting % for said season and or playoffs. That stat speaks volumes.



I even gave you the Olympics as well. I know that team sucked too. Funny the team that wasn't even supposed to be in the medal round had 1-2 clutch players. And of course the team that Won it with 2 "clutch" players one of them the MVP and the other scoring the game winner.



I've never seen it. I've seen a great player who when it count's most doesn't carry his team. Toews most DEFINITELY carries his team, whehter he's on the score sheet or not. Crosby as well. Plus they have proven clutch.



This is fun.

 

[Variable]

Right, I know you pointed Kane out as not a piece you would build an entire team around but as a great "wild card" as you put it. A great, man I don't know the word for it that would do him justice. Secondary threat? Got a few of those on the Hawks. Whatever he is, he's proved himself in the playoffs and in the regular season, when he and Toews are together, they usually play their best. Batman and Robin, hahaah, there we go.



That was my entire point. I know Kane's not "the guy". He's the other guy. But who is that to Ovechkin? Who is his Kane? Who is his Hossa, his Sharp? Or maybe it's the other way around, who is his Toews? Either way, it's out of his control. Who are the guys to take the load off him and can carry the team when he struggles? Or not even when he struggles, just when he needs HELP. That guy hasn't existed in the playoffs for Ovechkin. It's been him or bust.

 

[agenthehe]

god you guys posted a lot today here. I'm staying out of the main fight as I agree with both sides on some things and imo Ovi is only behind #87, #19 and maybe #6 for me if I'm starting a franchise...



But and I don't remember who and am too lazy to look... as long as #87's head isn't scrambled eggs ANYONE who says he's not the best all around player/total package in the league is off their rocker. Maybe he's not the leader #19 is, but #87's skill set is so much ahead of EVERY other player in the league and he has matured and become a good capitan that anyone who doesn't choose him #1 (again as long as his head isn't all mashed potatoeee) is off their rocker. He is a once in a generation talent and growing into becoming a great leader to boot, Gretz (and I never liked him) may not have been "the best" captain, but his skill set was out of this world, imo only Mario compared and even then, that's a stretch, Sid is on their path of greatness, even if #19 wins more cups.

 

[R K]

there is no argument. I just disagree with the both of them on him being over rated. No doubt the 'team" plays a part but what ever.



No doubt it's #87-#19 at the top of the list. Then I'd question #91 next but we'll see this year how he does.



And Semin is even more over rated than Ovechkin. Funny they have two on one team.



And Mario is probably the best two way player/leader ever made. Gretz had far more skill but no way the two way game.

 

[Variable]

Again when you point out any game 7 or when his team needed the goal the most, IE 1 goal games, dire need, win or lose, let me know. Instead just show me is shooting % for said season and or playoffs. That stat speaks volumes.



I even gave you the Olympics as well. I know that team sucked too. Funny the team that wasn't even supposed to be in the medal round had 1-2 clutch players. And of course the team that Won it with 2 "clutch" players one of them the MVP and the other scoring the game winner.



I've never seen it. I've seen a great player who when it count's most doesn't carry his team. Toews most DEFINITELY carries his team, whehter he's on the score sheet or not. Crosby as well. Plus they have proven clutch.



This is fun.

....What's not clutch? What's overrated? You're using these terms to describe Ovechkin in comparison to teams that are stacked and didn't need to have one player lead them through fire and brimstone every single playoff game or series. How short are our memories? It wasn't just Toews in the playoffs scoring goals from his knees every game.



Not having the luxury of a team like the 2010 Hawks playing alongside you makes you overrated? Not having Malkin be a SECOND line center on your team makes you overrated? Or Jordan Staal being the third line center if need be? Here's what's in dire need, here's what's clutch to the CAPITALS. You don't need to point to elimination games or Game 7s, you can point to EVERY playoff game the Capitals play in being in dire need of Ovechkin scoring, of living and dying on his performance.



Because there is no Malkin, there is no Jordan Staal or Patrick Kane or Patrick Sharp or Marian Hossa backing him up when it comes to the playoffs. Doesn't mean it'll never happen, but no one has proved to be that player yet. So it's basically been up to him, and you can't judge a player in situation like that and call him overrated when compared to players like Toews and Crosby and their respective teams. That's putting on some heavy blinders.



It's just not a realistic expectation at all, for any one player, no matter how good he is. Wayne Gretzky left the Oilers and joined the Kings and two years later the Oilers swept his ass out of the playoffs and went on to win another Cup because they had an amazing TEAM even without him and the Kings were below average. The only reason they were even there in the first place was because of Gretzky. And he only had 1 other opportunity to play in the Final for the rest of his career after leaving Edmonton. Had he stayed with that juggernaut of a team, they'd probably win another 2 Cups, maybe more who knows.



Even the best player in space-time continuum cannot win a Cup, and is hard pressed to even advance to another Final, without a good enough team around him. Like I said, people like to preach on how it's such a team oriented goal of winning the Cup, but they certainly don't judge players that way who've never won it or gotten the opportunity because of circumstances out of their control.

 

[R K]

Man you really must be bored....

 

[R K]

Well I listed them in that order specifically Toews/Stamkos/Crosby.



Toews has all the intangibles/leadership in the world along with amazing skill to back it up.

Crosby is arguably the best player in the world but lacks maturity and other intangibles that make a good leader.

Stamkos is a hybrid of both IMO.

Agreed. And I'm not going to type a book.

 

[Variable]

When I discuss different topics I, you know, discuss them? If you don't like reading I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Ton]

....What's not clutch? What's overrated? You're using these terms to describe Ovechkin in comparison to teams that are stacked and didn't need to have one player lead them through fire and brimstone every single playoff game or series. How short are our memories? It wasn't just Toews in the playoffs scoring goals from his knees every game.



Not having the luxury of a team like the 2010 Hawks playing alongside you makes you overrated? Not having Malkin be a SECOND line center on your team makes you overrated? Or Jordan Staal being the third line center if need be? Here's what's in dire need, here's what's clutch to the CAPITALS. You don't need to point to elimination games or Game 7s, you can point to EVERY playoff game the Capitals play in being in dire need of Ovechkin scoring, of living and dying on his performance.



Because there is no Malkin, there is no Jordan Staal or Patrick Kane or Patrick Sharp or Marian Hossa backing him up when it comes to the playoffs. Doesn't mean it'll never happen, but no one has proved to be that player yet. So it's basically been up to him, and you can't judge a player in situation like that and call him overrated when compared to players like Toews and Crosby and their respective teams. That's putting on some heavy blinders.



It's just not a realistic expectation at all, for any one player, no matter how good he is. Wayne Gretzky left the Oilers and joined the Kings and two years later the Oilers swept his ass out of the playoffs and went on to win another Cup because they had an amazing TEAM even without him and the Kings were below average. The only reason they were even there in the first place was because of Gretzky. And he only had 1 other opportunity to play in the Final for the rest of his career after leaving Edmonton. Had he stayed with that juggernaut of a team, they'd probably win another 2 Cups, maybe more who knows.



Even the best player in space-time continuum cannot win a Cup, and is hard pressed to even advance to another Final, without a good enough team around him. Like I said, people like to preach on how it's such a team oriented goal of winning the Cup, but they certainly don't judge players that way who've never won it or gotten the opportunity because of circumstances out of their control.

Excellent example of an amazing player that could not win it all himself. Doesn't matter who you are, no supporting cast, no Cup. Until Ovechkin has that opportunity, his teams will continue to fizzle out.



Also, now Ovechkin is overrated? Come on we all agreed he was right behind Crosby, Toews, and arguably Stamkos. How are we overrating him? All we disagree on is you think those teams were good enough to win and apparently Ovechkin just wasn't good enough to advance them to a Cup, and I think he's good enough he just doesn't have a team that can pull it together at the right moments. I agree that Semin is overrated and part of the problem though, Backstrom has trouble showing up at times too.



Imagine if the Hawks drafted Backstrom instead of Toews? Caps take Toews, we take Backstrom... great that things turned out in our favor!

 

[the canadian dream]

True true. I can tell you this though after spending a many hours this off season watching old Oilers games.



Oilers without Wayner in his prime = zero cups. I think everyone needs to go back and watch old Oiler cup and playoff games. Wayner was fucking amazing. He indeed made every player on that team better than they were and half those players on those rosters were incredible to begin with. I think you all need to go back and relive some of the amazing shit Wayner did with and without the puck. Not a defensive dynamo in the sense where he is going to grind you hard along the boards and win puck battles. He didn't have to the guy was 3 plays ahead of everyone on the ice. He knew were the puck was and his fellow players were going to be 3 plays ahead. VERY VERY few have ever had that gift. Wayner is one Mario an other just to name the obvious two (there are a few others). Guys like Ovechkin, Stamkos, even Toews..don't have that (but out of those 3 I would say Toews has the best eye and feel). They are freaking talented but they don't have that X factor guys like Wayner and Mario had. Messier never had it, Jagr never had it. So you can go on and on about how teams win you cups..they do I won't disagree but when you have incredible RARE talent like Wayner and Mario had? It makes it a hell of a lot easier. Orr had that gift and talent also and so does Lidstrom..if we want to throw in the blueliners who have had that X factor also.



For reals...those who forgot about how amazing guys like Wayner and Mario were and are just remembering little details? Go watch old games. I swear to god re-living their games will amaze you once again. These guys were clutch beyond clutch and controlled the game unlike any before them or since. It's mind blowing what they did on the ice. No one in the league right now or since could hold their jock straps.

 

[Variable]

Well now you're comparing what players allegedly did and/or didn't have going across eras, and big differences from the game withstanding throughout it all and it's just very tough to gauge it properly in comparison to players of today and the game of today and moves into discussion again about goal tending and defense.



People really need to take into account that era was already one of very high offense and very poor defense and goaltending. That's what strikes me the most when I watch highlights of games from that time. Overall, I really don't think the talent gap from the top players seen of that time, who are seen as such partly because of setting some unbreakable records because of playing during that era, to the top players of today is as big as some people would have you believe. That's not "dissing" players like Gretzky or Messier or Mario, they can't help it, but it should be seen in proper context when you start comparing them to the top players of today.

 

[supraman]

Top 5 player in the world, sure. Players I'd take over him hands down?



Crosby

Toews

Stamkos



There's three right there. In a heart beat.

I'd take Ovie over Stamkos any day of the week and I hate Ovie and like Stamkos.



Stamkos is a great goal scorer but Ovie is better because Ovie can make the scoring chance all by himself, while unless St.Louis spoon feeds Stamkos he doesn't score.



Stamkos has to improve in that area a lot before I really start saying I'd take him over Ovie.

 

[supraman]

I think so. Although there are certain leaders I might build a team around. I don't place Ovechkin in the "leadership" category. I do with the other three you mentioned. They were bred to be leaders.



I'm not sure I'd build my team around Kane either. He's a world class talent but you don't get the "total package" from him. Kane, has clearly proven to be "clutch" though, which is the wild card. Without a doubt, no question.

I don't built a team around Kane nor do i build one around stamkos. You build around guys like Toews, Sakic, Yzerman, Crosby, St.Louis, Ignila.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

I think so. Although there are certain leaders I might build a team around. I don't place Ovechkin in the "leadership" category. I do with the other three you mentioned. They were bred to be leaders.



I'm not sure I'd build my team around Kane either. He's a world class talent but you don't get the "total package" from him. Kane, has clearly proven to be "clutch" though, which is the wild card. Without a doubt, no question.

DING DING DING....and we have the winner statement right there!!!!!! Ovie is one of, if not the best scorer in the league hands down, no one is arguing this at all. The point everyone....well a couple of people.....are/is missing is he is not a leader, failing to provide motivation and creating things in those clutch moments like RK is saying. Flat out he is not stepping up and leading by example when he HAS to in the playoffs. When they are down by a goal going into the locker room, he doesnt light a fire under anyones ass, instead of actually shooting the puck and being the puck hog, he is dumping it off to someone else. Yes, he has awesome playoff stats.....but when it comes down to it, he is not a natural leader....not A Toews, a Crosby (this is the only nice thing you will ever hear me mutter about the whiney panty-waste) a Stamkos or even the Malkin that has been mentioned. I know the guy has a deep love for the game, I have had the priviledge of talking to the young man, but on ice or locker room leader, he is not. And if you are going to build a team around anyone, you build it around a strong leader.

The point has been made that it is a team game, and that you can't win if you are outscored. Well no shit. But it's also a leader/captains responsibility to start pumping his guys up and lead by example when the shoulders start to droop or the heads start to hang. Who catches the blame if something fails????? The leader, the Captain. And that is the point being made. That is why Ovie catches the blame for the Caps floundering in the playoffs.

 

[supraman]

DING DING DING....and we have the winner statement right there!!!!!! Ovie is one of, if not the best scorer in the league hands down, no one is arguing this at all. The point everyone....well a couple of people.....are/is missing is he is not a leader, failing to provide motivation and creating things in those clutch moments like RK is saying. Flat out he is not stepping up and leading by example when he HAS to in the playoffs. When they are down by a goal going into the locker room, he doesnt light a fire under anyones ass, instead of actually shooting the puck and being the puck hog, he is dumping it off to someone else. Yes, he has awesome playoff stats.....but when it comes down to it, he is not a natural leader....not A Toews, a Crosby (this is the only nice thing you will ever hear me mutter about the whiney panty-waste) a Stamkos or even the Malkin that has been mentioned. I know the guy has a deep love for the game, I have had the priviledge of talking to the young man, but on ice or locker room leader, he is not. And if you are going to build a team around anyone, you build it around a strong leader.

The point has been made that it is a team game, and that you can't win if you are outscored. Well no shit. But it's also a leader/captains responsibility to start pumping his guys up and lead by example when the shoulders start to droop or the heads start to hang. Who catches the blame if something fails????? The leader, the Captain. And that is the point being made. That is why Ovie catches the blame for the Caps floundering in the playoffs.

Yeah one guy cannot win or lose you the game...except Campoli....