THN picks the Hawks to lose in the SCF to the Caps

[R K]

DING DING DING....and we have the winner statement right there!!!!!! Ovie is one of, if not the best scorer in the league hands down, no one is arguing this at all. The point everyone....well a couple of people.....are/is missing is he is not a leader, failing to provide motivation and creating things in those clutch moments like RK is saying. Flat out he is not stepping up and leading by example when he HAS to in the playoffs. When they are down by a goal going into the locker room, he doesnt light a fire under anyones ass, instead of actually shooting the puck and being the puck hog, he is dumping it off to someone else. Yes, he has awesome playoff stats.....but when it comes down to it, he is not a natural leader....not A Toews, a Crosby (this is the only nice thing you will ever hear me mutter about the whiney panty-waste) a Stamkos or even the Malkin that has been mentioned. I know the guy has a deep love for the game, I have had the priviledge of talking to the young man, but on ice or locker room leader, he is not. And if you are going to build a team around anyone, you build it around a strong leader.

The point has been made that it is a team game, and that you can't win if you are outscored. Well no shit. But it's also a leader/captains responsibility to start pumping his guys up and lead by example when the shoulders start to droop or the heads start to hang. Who catches the blame if something fails????? The leader, the Captain. And that is the point being made. That is why Ovie catches the blame for the Caps floundering in the playoffs.

Was like I was talking to a brick wall. I kept reading a mountain of text coming at me just spewing stuff I didn't really think relavant to what I was saying. Leadership = Clutch.



Supra that was exactly my point about kane. Thanks. Although Kane has something maybe only 1-2 other NHLers have so he does have a tangible. His vision on the ice.



Also I'd take Stamkos any day of the week exactly because of what you said. He will improve. Clearly. In all aspects of the game. What you see with Ovechkin is what you are going to get. What you saw from Stamkos, is/was what year of his game?



I do agree with most of your "build around" although I'd add a few and not sure about St. Louis. Weber, Doughty..



Campoli didn't lose that game, Hawks failed to win it moments earlier. Burrows made an incredible play grabbing the puck out of mid air. Hate the guy but it was a great play.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

Was like I was talking to a brick wall. I kept reading a mountain of text coming at me just spewing stuff I didn't really think relavant to what I was saying. Leadership = Clutch.



Supra that was exactly my point about kane. Thanks. Although Kane has something maybe only 1-2 other NHLers have so he does have a tangible. His vision on the ice.



Also I'd take Stamkos any day of the week exactly because of what you said. He will improve. Clearly. In all aspects of the game. What you see with Ovechkin is what you are going to get. What you saw from Stamkos, is/was what year of his game?



I do agree with most of your "build around" although I'd add a few and not sure about St. Louis. Weber, Doughty..



Campoli didn't lose that game, Hawks failed to win it moments earlier. Burrows made an incredible play grabbing the puck out of mid air. Hate the guy but it was a great play.

You were talking to a brick wall.

 

[supraman]

Was like I was talking to a brick wall. I kept reading a mountain of text coming at me just spewing stuff I didn't really think relavant to what I was saying. Leadership = Clutch.



Supra that was exactly my point about kane. Thanks. Although Kane has something maybe only 1-2 other NHLers have so he does have a tangible. His vision on the ice.



Also I'd take Stamkos any day of the week exactly because of what you said. He will improve. Clearly. In all aspects of the game. What you see with Ovechkin is what you are going to get. What you saw from Stamkos, is/was what year of his game?



I do agree with most of your "build around" although I'd add a few and not sure about St. Louis. Weber, Doughty..



Campoli didn't lose that game, Hawks failed to win it moments earlier. Burrows made an incredible play grabbing the puck out of mid air. Hate the guy but it was a great play.

Having seen St.Louis play a lot, trust me, you build around him. He is easily top 3 playmakers in the league. The guy has no quit in him and he is the heart and soul of the Bolts. Vinny might wear the C but St.Louis is soul of the team. Without knowing the intimate details St.Louis should be the captain.



I was kidding with the Campoli remark.

 

[LordKOTL]

Like I aforementioned: The only way Ovi got the captaincy was his stats and his play. The team en masse thinks that by giving him the C he will lead by example.



Crosby IMHO is similar. Gretz IMHO was similar.



IMHO Superstardom does not equal leadership. They are separate entities. A captain has to lead not only by example, but also be proactive in motivating EVERYONE on the team, doing things outside of their role, not playing selfish, and NEVER making excuses.



Toews fits that bill perfectly--much like Yzerman did. He has the maturity, the work ethic, and the air of responsibility around him. You never hear that he's a whiner, diver, or a cheapshot artist. He's dropped the gloves when no other guy would, and when put on the IR by Mitchell, he didn't make any excuses to the press or whine that it was an illegal play.



As such, I'd much rather build my team around a guy like him.

 

[winos5]

Speaking of players to build around. I've often wondered how much better Nash would be if he had the supporting casts of say Datsuck, Crosby, Toews, the Sedins. Won't surprise me is he plays his whole career in C-bus and never gets farther than losing in the 1st round of the playoffs. That team seems to be a study in futility, then again this may be the year they change things.

 

[supraman]

Also back on topic it is impossible for the hawks to lose in the SCFs Toews wont let it happen. He is a hockey god after all and he controls these things

 

[R K]

Speaking of players to build around. I've often wondered how much better Nash would be if he had the supporting casts of say Datsuck, Crosby, Toews, the Sedins. Won't surprise me is he plays his whole career in C-bus and never gets farther than losing in the 1st round of the playoffs. That team seems to be a study in futility, then again this may be the year they change things.

agenthehe and I were talking about #61 last night. Good question, and since he's always been with an inferior team who knows. I've not watched St. Louis enough Surpra which is why I questioned it.



I think Crosby and Toews are a lot a like on the ice. ALthough Crosby has a lot more talent offensively. WHere as JT is probably the better two way player.

 

[supraman]

agenthehe and I were talking about #61 last night. Good question, and since he's always been with an inferior team who knows. I've not watched St. Louis enough Surpra which is why I questioned it.



I think Crosby and Toews are a lot a like on the ice. ALthough Crosby has a lot more talent offensively. WHere as JT is probably the better two way player.

St.Louis has a hockey IQ that is right up there with JT and Crosby. The guy is a helluva player. Back when his contract was up, we needed veterancy and i felt he would have made an excellent fit but that was a few years ago

 

[Variable]

Like I aforementioned: The only way Ovi got the captaincy was his stats and his play. The team en masse thinks that by giving him the C he will lead by example.



Crosby IMHO is similar. Gretz IMHO was similar.



IMHO Superstardom does not equal leadership. They are separate entities. A captain has to lead not only by example, but also be proactive in motivating EVERYONE on the team, doing things outside of their role, not playing selfish, and NEVER making excuses.



Toews fits that bill perfectly--much like Yzerman did. He has the maturity, the work ethic, and the air of responsibility around him. You never hear that he's a whiner, diver, or a cheapshot artist. He's dropped the gloves when no other guy would, and when put on the IR by Mitchell, he didn't make any excuses to the press or whine that it was an illegal play.



As such, I'd much rather build my team around a guy like him.

So, again, the question stands, how is that his fault. If he is not a natural leader like people are saying of guys like Toews or Yzerman, Sakic and WE understand that and WE see that, why do WE still put the blame on him? He can't control whether or not they attain a player like that or a player steps into that role. If he's not "naturally inclined" to be that, and some just are, and we believe it's just because of the stats he was given the letter and not much else, why would continue to put it all on him? Don't we know better than that?

 

[R K]

Yikes.

 

[Variable]

Would you blame Kane if he didn't have Toews for falling short in the postseason? This is very simple, I don't see where the disconnect is here. Like you said Kane's not "that guy" and he's lucky to have a player like that on his team, but you would never levy the criticism of being that on him if he didn't. Why is it different with Ovechkin if we apparently know he only has the C because of his stats? We should know better than to criticize him on being something he's not. And that's all aside from the fact that one player can't win a Cup.

 

[PatrickShart]

I dont think leaders play any better/different with a C on their chest or not.



There's always more than 1-4 leaders on a team (Meaning C, A, A, A's arent the only ones to lead)



I'd bet to say Hossa is one of the top players even Toews looks up to in many situations.



I think Ovechkin is a pretty good player and leader. In the games I see...I never question his wanting/will to win for his team, willing to do everything in his power to help his team win. He plays a TON and I've never heard a team mate complain about him.



He's only 25 (soon to be 26) and came to North America...and has put the Caps on his back, when they were pretty much a lost team (thanks, Jagr). If Toews went to Europe, would they put the pressure of a team on his back, be expected to turn them around, etc?



I think WASH not winning doesn't have much to do because Ovechkin isn't a leader or a good Captain. Calgary hasn't won a Cup - is Ignlia not a good captain? Or Vancouver...so is Luongo/Sedin not...bwahah...sorry...



Point is...all the credit/blame doesn't just go or belong to a guy with a C

 

[supraman]

for the clutch portion of this thread. This is clutch. This is the shit legends are made of



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt2Lg25SQFk

 

[supraman]

I dont think leaders play any better/different with a C on their chest or not.



There's always more than 1-4 leaders on a team (Meaning C, A, A, A's arent the only ones to lead)



I'd bet to say Hossa is one of the top players even Toews looks up to in many situations.



I think Ovechkin is a pretty good player and leader. In the games I see...I never question his wanting/will to win for his team, willing to do everything in his power to help his team win. He plays a TON and I've never heard a team mate complain about him.



He's only 25 (soon to be 26) and came to North America...and has put the Caps on his back, when they were pretty much a lost team (thanks, Jagr). If Toews went to Europe, would they put the pressure of a team on his back, be expected to turn them around, etc?



I think WASH not winning doesn't have much to do because Ovechkin isn't a leader or a good Captain. Calgary hasn't won a Cup - is Ignlia not a good captain? Or Vancouver...so is Luongo/Sedin not...bwahah...sorry...



Point is...all the credit/blame doesn't just go or belong to a guy with a C

The problem with the caps is semin is lazy. Backstrom disappeared during the playoffs didnt he? Your captain or coach needs to light a fire under your ass. I cant say for certain but it doesnt seem like Ovie has that "come'on boys lets go win this" mentality more of a "I have to go win this"



Toews on the other hand is a team motivator, those guys player better because of him. I dont watch enough caps hockey but I can say this for the hawks. There is no question whose team that is

 

[PatrickShart]

But thats just it - Toews has Hossa, Seabrook, Keith...had Madden here, Ladd's won cups, Sharp...etc



I don't know what Backstrom is like, but Semin - a key player, has been looked at as lazy, they've never had a shut down type Dmam, let alone a few guys on the back end/solid goaltending.



It's not a bad trait that Ovie plays hard/by example....I think the teams short comings have more to do with Boudreau than Ovie. He's kind of like Savard...in probably a good/likeable guy...but put a winner coach back there, and the team would take that next step. I think if they don't win it this year - bye bye Brucey boy

 

[Variable]

That's just it . Who is Ladd on the Caps? He's a captain on Winnipeg, he was playing third line for the Hawks. Caps don't have that.

 

[LordKOTL]

I'm not saying anything is Ovenchicken's fault. I'm just saying when it comes to someone you build your team around in terms of leadership--he's not it. He's got the drive and desire, and the skills to play at his level (along with a wide stance that gers your ass kicked at the urinal, but I digress), but it's all unto himself. It's not a bad quality to have in and of itself but comparing Toews and Ovi, I can see Toews getting into Semins face more then Ovechkin will.



And yeah...the 'hawks have a lot of good leadership. Aside from Toews/Keith/Sharp, you could also add Seabrook/Hossa into that, and Brunette could be added into it as well.

 

[R K]

I'm not saying anything is Ovenchicken's fault. I'm just saying when it comes to someone you build your team around in terms of leadership--he's not it. He's got the drive and desire, and the skills to play at his level (along with a wide stance that gers your ass kicked at the urinal, but I digress), but it's all unto himself. It's not a bad quality to have in and of itself but comparing Toews and Ovi, I can see Toews getting into Semins face more then Ovechkin will.



And yeah...the 'hawks have a lot of good leadership. Aside from Toews/Keith/Sharp, you could also add Seabrook/Hossa into that, and Brunette could be added into it as well.

.



1. He's over rated. 2-3 clutch, massively meaning full Youtubes have been posted showing "clutch". Game on the line moments.



2. He's not some one I'd build my team aroud.



3. I don't think, nor would I make Ovechkin a Captain.





.

 

[R K]

But thats just it - Toews has Hossa, Seabrook, Keith...had Madden here, Ladd's won cups, Sharp...etc



I don't know what Backstrom is like, but Semin - a key player, has been looked at as lazy, they've never had a shut down type Dmam, let alone a few guys on the back end/solid goaltending.



It's not a bad trait that Ovie plays hard/by example....I think the teams short comings have more to do with Boudreau than Ovie. He's kind of like Savard...in probably a good/likeable guy...but put a winner coach back there, and the team would take that next step. I think if they don't win it this year - bye bye Brucey boy

Surprised he wasn't canned last year. Either way he's gone this year because the Hawks are winning the Cup.

 

[R K]

Would you blame Kane if he didn't have Toews for falling short in the postseason? This is very simple, I don't see where the disconnect is here. Like you said Kane's not "that guy" and he's lucky to have a player like that on his team, but you would never levy the criticism of being that on him if he didn't. Why is it different with Ovechkin if we apparently know he only has the C because of his stats? We should know better than to criticize him on being something he's not. And that's all aside from the fact that one player can't win a Cup.

for the 1------th time Kane is "clutch", when the game means the most. And I still don't think he's someone I'd build my team around. Although as I also said four fucking times now he has a "VISION" on the ice that NO ONE else in the NHL does.



I said I wouldn't build my team around him. Just as I wouldn't Ovechkin. In the playoffs, Id take Kane over Ovechkin.