THN picks the Hawks to lose in the SCF to the Caps

[Variable]

Anyways that does go into the fact that Ovechkin really doesn't have the supporting team around him like you said. Put guys like Sharp and Toews and Keith and Seabrook with him? Cup possibilities probably increase. Not sure if that is the fault of the cap per say. Think that's management...and a little draft luck..and a whole lot of other variables including the cap. Cap is an easy scape goat though sometimes when the problem is actually poor management and managing for things other than winning cups.

The reason why I say they were luxuries was because you can't hold on to that depth in talent with a hard cap. Having a tough time trying to figure out where to put Versteeg was a "luxury", a good problem to have for the Hawks. It was a luxury to have a player like Andrew Ladd play mostly third line checking duty, seeing as only an off-season removed from that he's now going on his second year leading his own team. These players don't exist on the Capitals.



And I just don't completely buy the whole "making players play better". Especially when it comes to the playoffs. If you need extra motivation to play hard in the playoffs, you don't deserve to be there. If it's true that is what is holding the Capitals back is Ovechkin not being able to get through to his teammates, to make them "better" when it comes to the playoffs, and somehow he is personally held responsible for that, he's in even worse shape than anyone can imagine. He truly is alone if that's the case.



And that shouldn't increase the the criticism on HIM, that should increase the criticism on his teammates. It's like bizarro world, why are people coming down on him for that? Players can't get up for a playoff game? Must be the fault of the one guy who does? Huh?

 

[dlrob315]

Here is Ovechkins stats in Playoff elimination games:



4GP | 3G | 4A

1.75 PPG



Sorry if that's not "clutch" I don't know wtf more he can do. 7 points in 4 games.



Let me grab Crosby's stats in elimination games real quick:



11GP | 5G | 8A

1.18 PPG



Wow, 2 more goals in 7 more games. So much more clutch! I'm pretty sure this ends the argument.

Ovie is not clutch...he is good.

 

[supraman]

I can't say I disagree, St. Louis is a fantastic performer as well.

Stamkos has the potential to be great, to be held in the same in the light as Toews, Crosby, etc.



But at this point in his career, his scoring is too dependent on St.Louis feeding him the puck.



St.Louis is an incredible player it is a shame he doesnt "seem" to want the C, he'd be an excellent captain. He'll retire a Bolt but man I'd love to see him in the Indianhead (we have no need for him but watching him with the likes of Kane and Toews would make me cream my panties)

 

[supraman]

Here is Ovechkins stats in Playoff elimination games:



4GP | 3G | 4A

1.75 PPG



Sorry if that's not "clutch" I don't know wtf more he can do. 7 points in 4 games.



Let me grab Crosby's stats in elimination games real quick:



11GP | 5G | 8A

1.18 PPG



Wow, 2 more goals in 7 more games. So much more clutch! I'm pretty sure this ends the argument.

I can see what you are saying Ton. I think everyone has a slightly different interpretation of clutch. For me clutch is making those legendary plays that the fans won't forget for the rest of their lives and result in the winning of games. Game 5 vs Nashville was clutch, the whole team actually was clutch but Kane and Hossa were clutch, as well as the guys that fed them the passes (I forget who). Toews scoring the tying goal against the nucks in game 7 was clutch. Seabs was clutch in the comeback against the flames. To rally down from 5-0, you just couldn't lose, you needed a clutch player. Hell Niemi was clutch that game since he didn't let another goal in and the flames had chances.



The nucks as a team are not clutch at all. Individual players might be but as a whole the team isn't. Nor are the capitals.



When the going gets tough those teams disappear. Teams like Boston and the Hawks get going. With last season being an exception (that has already been well discussed on these boards). No matter what the score the hawks are so fucking clutch they are never out of a game. I mean dude down 5-0 in the first. YOU LOST the game is over, go through the motions and get it the **** over with. No the hawks they just go win the fucking thing because they can.

 

[supraman]

The reason why I say they were luxuries was because you can't hold on to that depth in talent with a hard cap. Having a tough time trying to figure out where to put Versteeg was a "luxury", a good problem to have for the Hawks. It was a luxury to have a player like Andrew Ladd play mostly third line checking duty, seeing as only an off-season removed from that he's now going on his second year leading his own team. These players don't exist on the Capitals.



And I just don't completely buy the whole "making players play better". Especially when it comes to the playoffs. If you need extra motivation to play hard in the playoffs, you don't deserve to be there. If it's true that is what is holding the Capitals back is Ovechkin not being able to get through to his teammates, to make them "better" when it comes to the playoffs, and somehow he is personally held responsible for that, he's in even worse shape than anyone can imagine. He truly is alone if that's the case.



And that shouldn't increase the the criticism on HIM, that should increase the criticism on his teammates. It's like bizarro world, why are people coming down on him for that? Players can't get up for a playoff game? Must be the fault of the one guy who does? Huh?

Toews's leadership makes players rise to the occasion that is what is meant by the team players better because of him. Now we have a great group of guys too so that doesnt hurt. But Jonny never quits a game and the players see it and they follow him, so they don't quit either.

 

[Variable]

Here is Ovechkins stats in Playoff elimination games:



4GP | 3G | 4A

1.75 PPG



Sorry if that's not "clutch" I don't know wtf more he can do. 7 points in 4 games.



Let me grab Crosby's stats in elimination games real quick:



11GP | 5G | 8A

1.18 PPG



Wow, 2 more goals in 7 more games. So much more clutch! I'm pretty sure this ends the argument.

Yeah it's funny how people can point to Toews tying goal in that game and have that to be the definition of clutch, but they gloss over things like this:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3U2ZNS6tj4[/media]



like it doesn't matter. I'm not going to go to the lengths of posting his playoff resume and every single example, but just for fun I went over it and there were a lot of goals and plays Ovechkin was involved in that I guarantee you would be deemed as "clutch" by anyone in a Hawks uniform (and rightly so because they are), but are lost in the fog somehow in this debate. Last minute regulation game winner. Late tying goals. Multiple last minute goals in the final minute of a period. You know, "clutch, momentum changing" plays that everyone likes to talk about.



And the only reason those are lost, is because Toews and Crosby have a ring and Ovechkin doesn't. That's the only reason. And it's bullshit. It's wrong to downplay a player and his efforts like that and call him overrated because he hasn't achieved what hockey fans, and the same fans who discredit him, see as the ultimate team sports trophy, the hardest to get, to even get a chance to play for when it's obvious to EVERYONE what team is more suited for the playoffs when the Ovechkin led Capitals are compared to the Toews' Hawks and Crosby's Penguins.

 

[Variable]

Toews's leadership makes players rise to the occasion that is what is meant by the team players better because of him. Now we have a great group of guys too so that doesnt hurt. But Jonny never quits a game and the players see it and they follow him, so they don't quit either.

Have you seen Ovechkin quit in a playoff game? If players cannot get up for a playoff game, that is not the fault of anyone else other than THAT player.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Yeah it's funny how people can point to Toews tying goal in that game and have that to be the definition of clutch, but they gloss over things like this:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3U2ZNS6tj4[/media]



like it doesn't matter. I'm not going to go to the lengths of posting his playoff resume and every single example, but just for fun I went over it and there were a lot of goals and plays Ovechkin was involved in that I guarantee you would be deemed as "clutch" by anyone in a Hawks uniform (and rightly so because they are), but are lost in the fog somehow in this debate. Last minute regulation game winner. Late tying goals. Multiple last minute goals in the final minute of a period. You know, "clutch, momentum changing" plays that everyone likes to talk about.



And the only reason those are lost, is because Toews and Crosby have a ring and Ovechkin doesn't. That's the only reason. And it's bullshit. It's wrong to downplay a player and his efforts like that because he hasn't achieved what hockey fans, and the same fans who discredit him, see as the ultimate team sports trophy, the hardest to get, to even get a chance to play for when it's obvious to EVERYONE what team is more suited for the playoffs when the Ovechkin led Capitals are compared to the Toews' Hawks and Crosby's Penguins.

Hahhaha... what stickwork that was... perfectly timed poke check then a beauty of a stick lift.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

Have you seen Ovechkin quit in a playoff game? If players cannot get up for a playoff game, that is not the fault of anyone else other than THAT player.

As a a matter of fact I have, May 13th 2009, game 7 against Pittsburgh at the Verizon Center.

 

[Ton]

I can see what you are saying Ton. I think everyone has a slightly different interpretation of clutch. For me clutch is making those legendary plays that the fans won't forget for the rest of their lives and result in the winning of games. Game 5 vs Nashville was clutch, the whole team actually was clutch but Kane and Hossa were clutch, as well as the guys that fed them the passes (I forget who). Toews scoring the tying goal against the nucks in game 7 was clutch. Seabs was clutch in the comeback against the flames. To rally down from 5-0, you just couldn't lose, you needed a clutch player. Hell Niemi was clutch that game since he didn't let another goal in and the flames had chances.



The nucks as a team are not clutch at all. Individual players might be but as a whole the team isn't. Nor are the capitals.



When the going gets tough those teams disappear. Teams like Boston and the Hawks get going. With last season being an exception (that has already been well discussed on these boards). No matter what the score the hawks are so fucking clutch they are never out of a game. I mean dude down 5-0 in the first. YOU LOST the game is over, go through the motions and get it the **** over with. No the hawks they just go win the fucking thing because they can.

Just pointing out that you named 5 players there that were "clutch" to help the Hawks win the Cup. Not just one.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

Just pointing out that you named 5 players there that were "clutch" to help the Hawks win the Cup. Not just one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEt7jvY_maE



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu0ox_iOVqg



LOL Did Doc scream "KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANE" after the Hossa OT goal too?



Let's not forget Sopel's best play as a Hawk carrying the puck all the way into the zone and around the net prior to Hossa scoring that.

 

[R K]

Here is Ovechkins stats in Playoff elimination games:



4GP | 3G | 4A

1.75 PPG



Sorry if that's not "clutch" I don't know wtf more he can do. 7 points in 4 games.



Let me grab Crosby's stats in elimination games real quick:



11GP | 5G | 8A

1.18 PPG



Wow, 2 more goals in 7 more games. So much more clutch! I'm pretty sure this ends the argument.

Now dig further and find game changing points and or game winners. Like game 7's, clinching games, or games where they were down a goal and needed a score to move on, and or win the game.



Last year in at least three games they were talking how he was OFF he was, during the playoffs.



When he wins something you say? How many years have they been bounced now? Four game 7's winning one of them. As Variable has pointed out, I think four times, some of thats team, but sometimes your Star players need to have Clutch moments. Like the youtubes of Kane, Toews. Kane has had SEVERAL! Vancouver, Nashville, Flyers.... Toews saved them on the brink of elimination against the Canucks last year. Maybe I missed it but i've not seen Ovechkin do that in the playoffs. And I've seen a majority of their playoff games.



Can blow all the stats you want those do NOT show "clutch" moments. They show points and we all know he's one of the most productive guys in the league.



Supra this year should show if Stamkos is over rated or not. I think the lightening will give the Caps a run for their money.

 

[supraman]

Okay I ask this of BHC our resident Caps fan. Has Ovie made any game winning moments that you will remember the rest of your life?



For me that is the definition of clutch. everyone's might differ from mine but that's what _I_ vie as clutch. I'll never forget Game 5 and the comeback. Those moments were amazing, career defining moments.

 

[supraman]

Just pointing out that you named 5 players there that were "clutch" to help the Hawks win the Cup. Not just one.

I get what you are saying and I even said the caps as a team aren't clutch. Ovie has the heart and a **** load of talent. Hell I want to be an Ovie fan but his disregard for other players makes me hate him (that is a whole nother topic that we've all beaten to death so no need to rehash it). On a better team he is probably clutch and lives up to the hype surrounding him.



Variable, a cup is a capstone to a career. Why do you think so many players play past their time just to get one. Look at Ray Bourque the guy stuck around forever just for a shot at it.



Look at Dave Andrechuk, with no cup he doesn't even get looked at for the HHOF. Now that he has a cup he is still a long shot but gets consideration.

 

[Variable]

Yes KANE has several. Man,it's the same thing over and over again. Look at what you are saying. You keep bringing up how many great "clutch" plays that a player aside from Toews and one that you wouldn't build a team around made on a Stanley Cup winning team. And then you keep questioning "well where are the Caps in their elimination games, how many times have they been bounced,etc,etc" So the obvious question would be: Who is Kane to Ovechkin? The guy who takes the load off? The obvious answer is: He doesn't exist.



If he did the results would be different. It's ALL about the team in the playoffs. Not some of it. Everything you need to get deep in the playoffs is all about having a great TEAM effort. Why does this need explaining? What did we just watch only a year ago?

 

[Ton]

RK I just showed you his stat's in elimination games... how are those games not "clutch"? Those six games might have been the most important games of his entire career.



Do you know what an elimination game is? lol



4 of those 6 elimination games are Game 7's. (I screwed up, its 3G and 4A in 6 Elimination games, not 4)



Ovie has 2G 2A in 4 Game 7s.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

And what point are you missing, it is the Captains responsibility to get HIS team in it and keep HIS team in it, and he hasn't done that. If a guy starts to become non-existant in the playoffs, it is the Captains job to light the fire under that players ass. That is what he is not doing. I am not arguing if he is a clutch player or not, I am telling you why he gets the blame...He is the fucking captain, that is why. In business, a team doesnt meet their deadline, who gets the blame? the team lead. A production line doesnt meet it's quota, who gets the blame? the line supervisor. It isnt fucking rocket science.



There are all kinds of moments I weill remember from Ovie, trying to seperate the game winners from a "normal" goal is nigh impossible.

 

[supraman]

BHC spoken. Ovie has clutch moments. He just sucks ass as a captain and his team sucks.

 

[supraman]

Supra this year should show if Stamkos is over rated or not. I think the lightening will give the Caps a run for their money.

Really to find out if he is overrated or not you have to take St.Louis out of the equation but yeah the lightning look good but their 3rd and 4th lines are nobodys that really stand out. The excellent 3rd liner, in Sean Berginheim, they had they let go (hawks shoulda got him, poor man's ladd)



But the lack of depth concerns me with the Bolts. The top 6 forwards are stellar. D is good but hedman hasn't really became the star they projected him to be but still a very servicable Dman

 

[nana]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEt7jvY_maE[/media]



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu0ox_iOVqg[/media]



LOL Did Doc scream "KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANE" after the Hossa OT goal too?



Let's not forget Sopel's best play as a Hawk carrying the puck all the way into the zone and around the net prior to Hossa scoring that.

I loved watching that video again because I had forgotten about Sopel carrying the puck all the way around!