Update On The "Great Moves".

[Jntg4]

He DIDN'T nix the deal.

Sorry the facts are too difficult for you to understand.

It has been pointed out plainly and clearly by Ryan Dempster himself as well as Jed Hoyer.

Yet you childishly keep insisting he nixed the deal.



Funny how you have no problem finding links and quotes to items that you feel support your stance, but when the facts don't support your incorrect opinion you completely lose the ability to use Google.

Pure trollish.

Not approving it by the deadline the Braves set essentially equals nixing it, try again.

 

[JosMin]

He DIDN'T nix the deal.

Sorry the facts are too difficult for you to understand.

It has been pointed out plainly and clearly by Ryan Dempster himself as well as Jed Hoyer.

Yet you childishly keep insisting he nixed the deal.



Funny how you have no problem finding links and quotes to items that you feel support your stance, but when the facts don't support your incorrect opinion you completely lose the ability to use Google.

Pure trollish.

So then, what's this?

In this article, Theo does a good job of breaking everything down. Essentially from what I can gather, Dempster fucked himself over with going to the Dodgers because he wouldn't let it go that they weren't going to increase their offer to the Cubs.

Epstein gave a detailed explanation of the Dempster trade saga, confirming that Dempster was informed of the possibility of being traded to Atlanta 2-3 days before the deal was leaked to the media.

So, Dempster knew about the possibility of a trade before hand, but the talks were obviously premature.

Epstein said Dempster shouldn't be criticized for using his 10-and-5 rights to veto the trade, but conceded it hurt the team's leverage in talks with the Dodgers, who weren't budging. The Cubs wound up getting a lesser deal from Texas, acquiring two Class-A prospects.

"It created a market of one up until about 15 minutes to go (before Tuesday's trade deadline)," Epstein said. "That's just the nature of 10-5 rights. It allows a player to say 'I won't be traded, period.' And Ryan didn't do that.

The Dodgers were smart, knowing that Dempster wanted to go there and after the deal to Atlanta was leaked, they stood on their initial offer and didn't budge. It made total sense on their part. Why give up more if you don't have to?

So Dempster stuck with the longshot of going to L.A., and the Cubs paid the price. Dempster said he never said "no" to the Atlanta deal because he didn't get a chance before the trade was all over the Internet. Epstein said that was not totally correct.

"He didn't technically say 'no,' " Epstein said. "He said 'No, not now. I'm not going to go to Atlanta before I see about L.A.' And Atlanta, very reasonably, didn't want to wait around and risk not getting a pitcher."

And at the end of the day, why should Atlanta wait around for Dempster to make up his mind if he wanted to go there in the first place, when they wanted to start contract negotiations with him? It just ended up not making sense for either the Dodgers or Braves, and the Cubs ended up paying the ultimate price because of Dempster's stead-fast desire to go to the Dodgers.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...1_1_theo-epstein-ryan-dempster-trade-deadline

 

[Parade_Rain]

I already have.

A reporter like Rosenthal with an unnamed source isn't a guarantee of information. It sure as hell doesn't refute Ken Rosenthal <> Ryan Dempster.

In your opinion.

But nice to see you can speak for Mr. Dempster and how he makes his decisions.

Of course. Then again, when looking at the known facts in the case, to come to a different conclusion than Atlanta couldn't have been Ryan Dempster's 2nd choice would make very little sense.

 

[KBisBack!]

Not approving it by the deadline the Braves set essentially equals nixing it, try again.

Actually it doesn't.

Try again.

 

[KBisBack!]

So then, what's this?

Epstein gave a detailed explanation of the Dempster trade saga, confirming that Dempster was informed of the possibility of being traded to Atlanta 2-3 days before the deal was leaked to the media.

Can you really not tell the difference between possibility of being traded and a deal completed??

I mean someone could say there is a possibility that you might actually say something intelligent in 2-3 days but if it actually happened it would shock the hell out of me and I would probably need a few days to process it.

 

[KBisBack!]

A reporter like Rosenthal with an unnamed source isn't a guarantee of information. It sure as hell doesn't refute Ken Rosenthal <> Ryan Dempster.

You didn't ask for a guarantee. But keep moving the goalposts.

You haven't provided any sources at all, unnamed or not, that says that Dempster did not want to go to Atlanta.

I have provided a source saying that Atlanta was second on his list and direct quotes from Dempster and Hoyer both saying that Atlanta was not the issue.

But you keep believing the fairy tale that Dempster refused to go to Atlanta.

 

[Parade_Rain]

You didn't ask for a guarantee. But keep moving the goalposts.

I didn't move the goalpost. I told you Rosenthal <> Dempster. Since all you can come up with is a guy who shares information that often times is very fluid in nature, and the source is unnamed, if the source was Dempster, it's a bit strange that Dempster didn't just put his name to the source.

You haven't provided any sources at all, unnamed or not, that says that Dempster did not want to go to Atlanta.

I don't have to do so. Those links with that information are crawling throughout this thread. That you choose to ignore them is to your disadvantage.

I have provided a source saying that Atlanta was second on his list and direct quotes from Dempster and Hoyer both saying that Atlanta was not the issue.

Those direct quotes don't back up the source you provided saying Atlanta was #2 on his list. As a matter of fact, it hurts your claim.

But you keep believing the fairy tale that Dempster refused to go to Atlanta.

OK. Epstein and Hoyer must have told Dempster they fucked it up and even though it was a great trade and Atlanta was a great baseball town and a great situation for Dempster, they just decided to let the trade deadline from Atlanta expire by their own hands. Dempster doesn't have responsibility in the matter. LOL.

 

[mountsalami]

We all know Theo fucked up the Dempster trade just like he did the Haren for Marmol. No reason making more excuses for our Boy Blunder. The team sucks and it has to do with his decision making skills. Why anyone would try to defend it is beyond me.

People defend Obama and he is by far the shitiest president in modern history. Just goes to show that more than half of the population is brain dead.

 

[Parade_Rain]

We all know Theo fucked up the Dempster trade

Actually, it looks like there are about 2 or 3 tinfoil hats believeing Theo fucked up the Dempster trade.

just like he did the Haren for Marmol.

I thought that one was a miss, but I am "meh" on that one. I'm more pissed that they trotted Marmol out there this year as the closer than I am missing on Haren. The one I thought they messed up on was DJ Lemahieu/Colvin/Stewart.

No reason making more excuses for our Boy Blunder.

Boy Blundered his way to 2 WS Championships. The nickname doesn't seem to fit.

The team sucks

Yes. It does.

and it has to do with his decision making skills.

This team was crap before his decision making skills came to the club.

Why anyone would try to defend it is beyond me.

I don't see too many defending this team, as much as they are demonstrating patience with an entire revamping of the operation.

People defend Obama and he is by far the shitiest president in modern history. Just goes to show that more than half of the population is brain dead.

Even CNN is reporting about Benghazi. It's only a matter of time before his approval ratings drop dramatically.

 

[mountsalami]

Actually, it looks like there are about 2 or 3 tinfoil hats believeing Theo fucked up the Dempster trade.

I thought that one was a miss, but I am "meh" on that one. I'm more pissed that they trotted Marmol out there this year as the closer than I am missing on Haren. The one I thought they messed up on was DJ Lemahieu/Colvin/Stewart.
Boy Blundered his way to 2 WS Championships. The nickname doesn't seem to fit.
Yes. It does.
This team was crap before his decision making skills came to the club.
I don't see too many defending this team, as much as they are demonstrating patience with an entire revamping of the operation.

Even CNN is reporting about Benghazi. It's only a matter of time before his approval ratings drop dramatically.

Stop being so mean.

 

[KBisBack!]

I didn't move the goalpost. I told you Rosenthal <> Dempster. Since all you can come up with is a guy who shares information that often times is very fluid in nature, and the source is unnamed, if the source was Dempster, it's a bit strange that Dempster didn't just put his name to the source.

Yeah you did.

You asked for a source listing Atlanta as his second choice.

I gave you the source and then you started saying the source wasn't good enough. Rosenthal is a national baseball reporter. It isn't like it was some obscure message board being quoted as the source.

I don't have to do so. Those links with that information are crawling throughout this thread. That you choose to ignore them is to your disadvantage.

Those direct quotes don't back up the source you provided saying Atlanta was #2 on his list. As a matter of fact, it hurts your claim.

Just like the Troll Patrol, when you get the evidence you request you say it isn't evidence.

When asked to provide your own facts, you say that you don't have to.

Ultimate Troll behavior.

There are many links in this thread and not a one of them say that Dempster didn't want to go to Atlanta. Not one.

Ryan Dempster himself said it had nothing to do with Atlanta.

Jed Hoyer said it had nothing to do with Atlanta.

Theo Epstein said Dempster should not be blamed.

And yet a bunch of idiots on a message board blame Dempster.

Classic.

 

[KBisBack!]

Even CNN is reporting about Benghazi. It's only a matter of time before his approval ratings drop dramatically.

Oh no. His approval ratings might drop. I am sure he is shaking in his boots over that.

He should be impeached and disappear in disgrace.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Yeah you did.

You asked for a source listing Atlanta as his second choice.

I gave you the source and then you started saying the source wasn't good enough. Rosenthal is a national baseball reporter. It isn't like it was some obscure message board being quoted as the source.

Yeah. Unnamed sources are always the best and most reliable kind.

Just like the Troll Patrol, when you get the evidence you request you say it isn't evidence.

When asked to provide your own facts, you say that you don't have to.

Ultimate Troll behavior.

Awesome. I'm now in Sparrow territory. My trolling is complete.

There are many links in this thread and not a one of them say that Dempster didn't want to go to Atlanta. Not one.

Ryan Dempster himself said it had nothing to do with Atlanta

Jed Hoyer said it had nothing to do with Atlanta.

Los Angeles

Theo Epstein said Dempster should not be blamed.

Of course not, but he also said that he was kept in the loop and shouldn't have been surprised.

And yet a bunch of idiots on a message board blame Dempster.

Classic.

All he had to do was say "yes". He didn't. Simple. Simple for us. Dempster did have life decisions to make. That was the hard part for him.

 

[KBisBack!]

Yeah. Unnamed sources are always the best and most reliable kind.

An unnamed source being used by a nationally recognized baseball reporter is still substantially better than your complete zero sources that you have been asked to provide on multiple occasions and have completely whiffed on.

Los Angeles

Huh? That makes even less sense the rest of the nonsense you have provided.

Of course not, but he also said that he was kept in the loop and shouldn't have been surprised.

Glad to see that you can once again speak for how Mr. Dempster should feel.

 

[Parade_Rain]

An unnamed source being used by a nationally recognized baseball reporter is still substantially better than your complete zero sources that you have been asked to provide on multiple occasions and have completely whiffed on.

I haven't "whiffed" on anything. It's worthless arguing with an immovable object who can't see the forest for the trees. Oh, yeah. BTW you claim that Dempster didn't "veto any trade.

Last week the Cubs agreed to send Dempster to Atlanta, but with his rights as a player with 10 years of service time in the big leagues and at least the last five with the same team, he had to approve any deal. Dempster was said to prefer to go to the Dodgers over the Braves. He denied that he vetoed a deal to Atlanta.

"I just never said no," he told reporters in Chicago, according to the Associated Press. "The last few days, I had to give it a lot more thought to the teams I might possibly be traded to."[

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/19696629/cubs-trade-ryan-dempster-to-rangers

Yeah. He just never said "yes" either. It's semantical BS.

Huh? That makes even less sense the rest of the nonsense you have provided.

I thought you said it didn't have anything to do with Atlanta? LOL. If it didn't have anything to do with Atlanta, it had to do with something else. That something else was Los Angeles. Come hell or high water, Dempster wanted to go to LA and it didn't matter if Atlanta was his second choice or 10th.

Glad to see that you can once again speak for how Mr. Dempster should feel.

I didn't speak for him. Theo says "hello."

"I think it's really hard to criticize Ryan. I think it's unfortunate. But he certainly wasn't blindsided because we had been telling him for days that Atlanta was a very likely destination and we were going to have to make a final decision."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...1_1_theo-epstein-ryan-dempster-trade-deadline

 

[The Bandit]

I haven't "whiffed" on anything. It's worthless arguing with an immovable object who can't see the forest for the trees. Oh, yeah. BTW you claim that Dempster didn't "veto any trade.

Yeah. He just never said "yes" either. It's semantical BS.


I thought you said it didn't have anything to do with Atlanta? LOL. If it didn't have anything to do with Atlanta, it had to do with something else. That something else was Los Angeles. Come hell or high water, Dempster wanted to go to LA and it didn't matter if Atlanta was his second choice or 10th.



I didn't speak for him. Theo says "hello."

whoops.

 

[Jntg4]

I haven't "whiffed" on anything. It's worthless arguing with an immovable object who can't see the forest for the trees. Oh, yeah. BTW you claim that Dempster didn't "veto any trade.

Yeah. He just never said "yes" either. It's semantical BS.


I thought you said it didn't have anything to do with Atlanta? LOL. If it didn't have anything to do with Atlanta, it had to do with something else. That something else was Los Angeles. Come hell or high water, Dempster wanted to go to LA and it didn't matter if Atlanta was his second choice or 10th.



I didn't speak for him. Theo says "hello."

But but but Theo lied personally to KB! How Awful!

 

[beckdawg]

Not quite.

I have consistently supplied the historical data that shows the low success rate of even the top 100 prospects from Baseball America becoming above average major league players.

And of course you saw the Orioles and Athletics as playoff teams last year during the prior offseason??

Heck both those teams might make the playoffs again this year.

I'm going to ignore the rest because we're going around in circles. To the first point, you were saying they could have added Fielder, brought back A-Ram and brought in a pitcher and would have had a good shot at 90 wins. That's the speculation I was referring to. Call WAR a broken metric all you want but that's flat out opinion.

As to the second point, it's interesting you bring both those teams up.

Oakland had Tommy Milone(prospect gotten by trading Gio Gonzo) win 13 games, Jarrod Parker(prospect gotten by trading Trevor Cahill) win 13 games, and Bartolo Colon(cheap FA signing similar to Baker/Maholm/Feldman) win 10 games. Offensively they had Josh Reddick(acquired in a trade for Andrew Bailey) step up and hit 32 HRs. The only FA splashes they made were with Jonny Gomes($1 million, one-year contract), Colon(1 year $2 million deal), Crisp(two year, $14 million deal) and Yoenis Cespedes(4-year, $36 million).

As for the O's, they had Chris Tillman(part of the Bedard trade) win 9 games, Miguel Gonzalez(signed to a minor league deal after flaming out with BOS/LAA) win 9 games, Jason Hammel(traded with Matt Lindstrom for Guthrie) win 8 games, Tommy Hunter(traded with Chris Davis for Koji Uehara) win 7 games, and Wei-Yin Chen(signed as an International FA for three-year contract worth $11.3 million). Offensively, Matt Wieters(home grown prospect) hit 23 HRs, Mark Reynolds(traded for David Hernandez and Kam Mickolio) hit 23 HRs, J.J. Hardy(trade with utility infielder Brendan Harris and $500,000, for minor league pitchers Brett Jacobson and Jim Hoey) hit 22 HRs, Adam Jones(also part of the Bedard trade) hit 32 HRs, and Chris Davis(previously mentioned Uehara trade) hit 33 HRs.

I'm not going to sit here and say the moves Theo and company have made will turn out as well as the moves the O's and A's made because no one can know that. But neither of those 2 teams were built through FA. The biggest splash either of these teams made was the A's signing Cespedes. In fact, both of these teams were built very similarly to what the cubs have been doing the past 2 years. The main difference is these teams are a few years farther down the road with their trades than the cubs are today. Is trading Garza and Dempster really any different than Cahill and Gonzo?

Milone, Parker, Reddick, Jones, Tillman, Davis, Hardy, Hammel, and Reynolds all came in trades. So, here's 2 recent examples of teams coming from no where who have taken a very similar approach to the cubs. They built the team by smart trades and farm system not via expensive FAs. The 5 years prior to last year BAL had 69, 66, 64, 68 and 69 wins. The 5 years prior to last year OAK had 74, 81, 75, 75, 76 wins. The cubs last year years are 61, 71, 75 and are on pace for 74 wins this year. And in all honesty I think the Baltimore comparison is truly a good one. They are a bigger market team who for years spent on FA talent trying to keep up with BOS/NYY and instead focused on their farm system and making smart trades while they tried to rid themselves of bad contracts.

So, while you're welcome to your opinion that the cubs should be spending more in FA, there's a lot of data that points to what they are doing as being a viable plan.

 

[KBisBack!]

Oh, yeah. BTW you claim that Dempster didn't "veto any trade.

As did Ryan Dempster himself.

So did Jed Hoyer.

So did Theo Epstein.

But continue to ignore those facts.

I thought you said it didn't have anything to do with Atlanta? LOL. If it didn't have anything to do with Atlanta, it had to do with something else. That something else was Los Angeles. Come hell or high water, Dempster wanted to go to LA and it didn't matter if Atlanta was his second choice or 10th.

You know who also said it had nothing to do with Atlanta??

Ryan Dempster himself and Jed Hoyer.

Continue to ignore those facts.

No one has disputed he wanted to go to LA. But because he wanted to go to LA first doesn't mean that he wouldn't have gone to Atlanta either.

Sorry that your little brain can only process one thing.

That something else has to do with the fact he was blindsided by the deal being completed and the media bombarding him with questions before he had a chance to process it.

I didn't speak for him. Theo says "hello."

Theo can't really speak for how Dempster should feel either.

If you do a Google search for 'Ryan Dempster blindsided by trade' you will probably come up with a dozen or so stories that reported that Dempster felt blindsided by the media.

How convenient that you left the previous paragraph out from your quote where Epstein said that Dempster really didn't have the time to contemplate the deal before the media bombarded him.

So out of one side of the mouth comes that Dempster didn't have any time to contemplate the deal and out of the other side of the mouth comes that he wasn't blindsided. Two statements that pretty much contradict themselves completely.

Kinda like how he said the rebuilding would take time but that the goal is to win the World Series every season and how precious every season was.

 

[KBisBack!]

Call WAR a broken metric all you want but that's flat out opinion.

Opinion supported by multiple examples of how it is inaccurate.

They built the team by smart trades and farm system not via expensive FAs. .

Yeah, they are doing that BOTH thing that the Cubs aren't.

Neither Baltimore or Oakland has the resources to spend consistently on expensive FAs, so it is ridiculous to compare them to the Cubs. The Cubs should be compared to teams like the Yankees, Boston, Philadelphia and the LA teams. They have much more in common with those teams than Oakland.

They haven't made smart trades and the cheap FAs they are signing are being used to build the farm system, not build the major league team.

Smart teams use the minor league system to build the major league team. The Cubs are using the major league team to build the minor league team.

The use of Baltimore and Oakland were not a comparison of how they were built, but how WAR was broken.

Yet instead of just saying yes, your examples do show how WAR is not as accurate as most people think it was, you straw manned it into a complete different topic.