Updates to the Kane situation

[Shantz My Pants]

Not at all similar. Tinder doesn't hire people for the specific purpose of ensuring its entrants are of age by an independent review of their licenses at the door. It also doesn't sound like the person took any action to verify her age himself.

The case is similar in deception if the girl was using a fake ID. That's only if the girl Kane banged was underage.

Either way, if saying this hypothetical is true, he still slept with someone under the legal age of consent.


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[Bearin' Down]

The case is similar in deception if the girl was using a fake ID. That's only if the girl Kane banged was underage.

Either way, if saying this hypothetical is true, he still slept with someone under the legal age of consent.


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Right, but he would have a defense. It's not reasonable to believe someone on a dating site would be truthful about their age. It would be incredibly reasonable to rely on someone's id, especially if someone who is employed to verify id's also found it reliable.

 

[Shantz My Pants]

Right, but he would have a defense. It's not reasonable to believe someone on a dating site would be truthful about their age. It would be incredibly reasonable to rely on someone's id, especially if someone who is employed to verify id's also found it reliable.

Sure he would have a defense, but to the court of law, he still would of slept with a minor. Doesn't matter the circumstances.


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[Bearin' Down]

Sure he would have a defense, but to the court of law, he still would of slept with a minor. Doesn't matter the circumstances.


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It's not strict liability though. I.e. defenses can get you off. If he reasonably thought she was the person on the fake id that mistake of fact would likely eliminate the mens rea and thus eliminate the crime.

 

[Tjodalv]

And I will just throw it out there, I sometimes cannot tell whether a girl is 14 or 24.... I have a friend from college, she is 26 now and she still looks like she is fucking 12 lol... As a dude you have some responsibility to try not to **** minors, but if girls lie about their age and have sex with you, then the court throws you on a sex offenders list... that is messed up.

Yep. This is actually very similar to what colleges have been trying to figure out with consent (see California's "affirmative consent"). Basically, according to Cal, if you do not acquire verbal consent at each portion of the encounter you're a rapist; i.e. "is it alright if I kiss you?" "can I eat you out?" "Is thrusting alright?" etc. What pair of drunken college students (this is what that statute is aimed at) are going to be comfortable enough to be that vocal during such an encounter?

A tongue in cheek solution:

The engineer’s solution:

Everyone who participates in the regulated activity needs to purchase a simple push-button device which controls a separate panel with a red light and a green light. During the regulated activity, each participant must hold down the button on the controller that illuminates the green light, which shall remain visible to the other party(ies) at all times. If, at any time, a participant releases this button, the green light goes off, and a red light comes on. Optionally, a siren could start to sound, to summon outside assistance.

These days, with Wifi and Bluetooth, I bet you could make the controller wireless and small enough to easily hold in one hand, leaving the other hand free for other activites…

I bet the Chinese could get something set up in a few weeks, and have it in stores by Xmas!

Failure to use such a device is cause to dismiss later allegations that consent was not given.

Batteries not included.

http://overlawyered.com/2014/10/california-sex-consent-law-engineers-solution/

Another solution that I think is both comical and silly -- in that it completely removes all romance/sexiness out of the situation -- is walking around with a written contract of intent/consent. Make the chick/dude sign it and you're on your way to happy town.

Edit: Or we could have everyone download an app to their phone which only requires a click and is a virtual signature for consent; and thus poor people couldn't breed legally. (win win)

 

[Shantz My Pants]

It's not strict liability though. I.e. defenses can get you off. If he reasonably thought she was the person on the fake id that mistake of fact would likely eliminate the mens rea and thus eliminate the crime.

Well, if this situation were to be true, we would have to wait and see what the courts decide.


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[Bearin' Down]

Well, if this situation were to be true, we would have to wait and see what the courts decide.


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Lol. That defeats the purpose off a hypothetical

 

[Ares]

Yep. This is actually very similar to what colleges have been trying to figure out with consent (see California's "affirmative consent"). Basically, according to Cal, if you do not acquire verbal consent at each portion of the encounter you're a rapist; i.e. "is it alright if I kiss you?" "can I eat you out?" "Is thrusting alright?" etc. What pair of drunken college students (this is what that statute is aimed at) are going to be comfortable enough to be that vocal during such an encounter?

A tongue in cheek solution:

The engineer’s solution:

Everyone who participates in the regulated activity needs to purchase a simple push-button device which controls a separate panel with a red light and a green light. During the regulated activity, each participant must hold down the button on the controller that illuminates the green light, which shall remain visible to the other party(ies) at all times. If, at any time, a participant releases this button, the green light goes off, and a red light comes on. Optionally, a siren could start to sound, to summon outside assistance.

These days, with Wifi and Bluetooth, I bet you could make the controller wireless and small enough to easily hold in one hand, leaving the other hand free for other activites…

I bet the Chinese could get something set up in a few weeks, and have it in stores by Xmas!

Failure to use such a device is cause to dismiss later allegations that consent was not given.

Batteries not included.

http://overlawyered.com/2014/10/california-sex-consent-law-engineers-solution/

Another solution that I think is both comical -- in that it completely removes all romance/sexiness out of the situation -- is walking around with a written contract of intent/consent. Make the chick/dude sign it and you're on your way to happy town.

Mkay besides the obvious flaw with the verbal consent thing.... if you have sex with a girl and awkwardly ask her "Can I kiss you?"... "Can I finger you?"... "Can I eat you out?".... "Can I penetrate you?"... and she says yes to everything... it's just you and her in most circumstances... how the **** could you prove you got verbal consent on every awkward question you asked?

I am guessing it is more a measure aimed at scaring college boys who are messing around with intoxicated women who may be too drunk to theoretically answer all those questions, because in practice it gets you nowhere IMO.

 

[italianbeef]

This may be terrible, but how is it Kanes fault if she's underage? The bar let her in. It is beyond fair for him to presume she is 21. This should be solely the Bars responsibility, if that is the case (or in any similar case) and her fault for lying.

If it was completely consensual and she looked of age and was in a bar, I say that's completely on her. Is he supposed to card girls he picks up?

 

[Tjodalv]

Mkay besides the obvious flaw with the verbal consent thing.... if you have sex with a girl and awkwardly ask her "Can I kiss you?"... "Can I finger you?"... "Can I eat you out?".... "Can I penetrate you?"... and she says yes to everything... it's just you and her in most circumstances... how the **** could you prove you got verbal consent on every awkward question you asked?

I am guessing it is more a measure aimed at scaring college boys who are messing around with intoxicated women who may be too drunk to theoretically answer all those questions, because in practice it gets you nowhere IMO.

This is exactly why it has been roundly criticized by the majority of law faculties, it just makes no fucking sense practically. But ever since the current administration appointed a committee to crack down on college sexual assault and harassment this is the type of bullshit that college administrators and state legislators have been coming up with. One has to wonder if some of these people were ever college students/teenagers.

Edit: It should also be noted that, for some unknown reason, sexual assaults by college students are handled by the college itself rather than actual law enforcement. (I have no clue why this is or how it makes any sense)

 

[Ares]

This is exactly why it has been roundly criticized by the majority of law faculties, it just makes no fucking sense practically. But ever since the current administration appointed a committee to crack down on college sexual assault and harassment this is the type of bullshit that college administrators and state legislators have been coming up with. One has to wonder if some of these people were ever college students/teenagers.

Edit: It should also be noted that, for some unknown reason, sexual assaults by college students are handled by the college itself rather than actual law enforcement. (I have no clue why this is or how it makes any sense)

Because if the police handled it, the accused rapist would probably die during the arrest.

 

[italianbeef]

Mkay besides the obvious flaw with the verbal consent thing.... if you have sex with a girl and awkwardly ask her "Can I kiss you?"... "Can I finger you?"... "Can I eat you out?".... "Can I penetrate you?"... and she says yes to everything... it's just you and her in most circumstances... how the **** could you prove you got verbal consent on every awkward question you asked?

Get it in writing and notarized. Or record it.

Love is in the air...

 

[Shantz My Pants]

Lol. That defeats the purpose off a hypothetical

Well, does anyone know how a court would handle it? Because there isn't anything in the law that states if a girl lies about her age and gets into a bar the defendant is not liable for his actions. It's if you have sexual relations with a person under the age of consent it is statutory rape.

PK could in this scenario go back and sue the bar, but he still technically raped the girl since she was underage.


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[Chief Walking Stick]

If it was completely consensual and she looked of age and was in a bar, I say that's completely on her. Is he supposed to card girls he picks up?

Really hope you're trolling and not really this dense.

 

[HeHateMe]

Get it in writing and notarized. Or record it.

Love is in the air...

more rapey talk, no wonder HF banned you.

 

[Bearin' Down]

Well, does anyone know how a court would handle it? Because there isn't anything in the law that states if a girl lies about her age and gets into a bar the defendant is not liable for his actions. It's if you have sexual relations with a person under the age of consent it is statutory rape.

PK could in this scenario go back and sue the bar, but he still technically raped the girl since she was underage.


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As I've been stating, the question would be as to mens rea (I.e. his state of mind). Prosecution would argue similar to you: mens rea is only relevant to the extent he had sex with her. Defense would say no, it's relevant as to her age as that's a requirement under the statute. I would say the layer argument is stronger, but many judges are elected officials and former prosecutors. Letting a potential sex offender go doesn't look good at re-election time. With that in mind it would likely settle. But there's no way to know how a judge would see a case, or jury for that matter.

 

[Shantz My Pants]

If it was completely consensual and she looked of age and was in a bar, I say that's completely on her. Is he supposed to card girls he picks up?

You must not understand what statutory rape means or why it's in place.

If this was your daughter would that be your answer?


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[italianbeef]

You must not understand what statutory rape means or why it's in place.

If this was your daughter would that be your answer?

My daughter wouldn't be at a bar with a fake ID and having sex with men.

 

[DMelt36]

As I've been stating, the question would be as to mens rea (I.e. his state of mind). Prosecution would argue similar to you: mens rea is only relevant to the extent he had sex with her. Defense would say no, it's relevant as to her age as that's a requirement under the statute. I would say the layer argument is stronger, but many judges are elected officials and former prosecutors. Letting a potential sex offender go doesn't look good at re-election time. With that in mind it would likely settle. But there's no way to know how a judge would see a case, or jury for that matter.

So if his state of mind was that he went to a bar in order to have sex with an underage girl, then he'd be in trouble? I'm confused. Because that just doesn't seem like a state of mind that a person would get in.

 

[Chief Walking Stick]

My daughter wouldn't be at a bar with a fake ID and having sex with men.

How do u know? What if she was acting out at u?