What happens if don't get one of the big 3?

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

When did I say Bosh was a bad player, if you read what I wrote I called him a top 10 player. Please don't put words in my mouth. Wade is just better he is a top 5 guy for the past 3-4 years and has snuck into the top 3 a couple of those times.

Bosh said
“It’s funny you say that, because I was thinking about it. I was just looking at what people say and it’s like, ‘Chris is going to go here and play with him or this, this and that.’ I’m like, ‘Wait a minute.’ I feel like I should be built around. And maybe that’s just my ego talking, but I feel that I’m a very good player in this league and I’m only going to get better. So … maybe we should be getting somebody [in Toronto].”

What words did I put in your mouth dude? When did I accuse you of calling Bosh a bad player? I get confidence from the quotation that you put up of Bosh, yet, it strikes you as selfish if he signs here in Chicago....what??? He has the skill to be the main guy, he doesn't have the mentality in my opinion, but my opinion is limited to the little I have seen of him, though I have seen a great deal of him this season. He has toughened up quite a bit...nothing wrong with him saying what he said...

I guess bad is a bit exagerated but you said he thinks of himself higher than I do. A top 10 player is a franchise player. You make it out to sound like he is a future hof. I'm not gonna have this dumb debate. Bottom line, we both agree that Wade is better and that Bosh is a better fit. Either way we get a really good player. I prefer the better player. Thats all I'm going to say about it.

 

[Shakes]

I think it's a fair comment, I mean as you say, he is a top 10 player, he has every right to be a bit ticked off that he always gets discussed in the context of who he could help rather than who can help him.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

I think it's a fair comment, I mean as you say, he is a top 10 player, he has every right to be a bit ticked off that he always gets discussed in the context of who he could help rather than who can help him.

The reason he gets that is because his team doesn't have max cap room. No one can join him. Its a fair comment that he would join wade in Miami. Wade has been there for years. If he came to Chicago he would join rose too, I just think its the way that its put. He thinks he is good enough elevate Toronto, history and I disagree.

 

[Shakes]

I don't know if that's fair, he's never had any help to show what he could do. If Wade didn't have amotivated Shaq for those two years then we'd probably say the same about him, I mean outside those years Toronto has actually won more games than Miami. I mean imagine if Toronto had drafted Roy instead of Bargnani (haha, always that draft), would we even consider Bosh moving to be a serious possibility?

So I guess I think Bosh is good enough to elevate Toronto if they could get him help, which they've failed at for 7 years now. Hopefully the guy can take a hint that he needs to move if he wants to win.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

I don't know if that's fair, he's never had any help to show what he could do. If Wade didn't have amotivated Shaq for those two years then we'd probably say the same about him, I mean outside those years Toronto has actually won more games than Miami. I mean imagine if Toronto had drafted Roy instead of Bargnani (haha, always that draft), would we even consider Bosh moving to be a serious possibility?

So I guess I think Bosh is good enough to elevate Toronto if they could get him help, which they've failed at for 7 years now. Hopefully the guy can take a hint that he needs to move if he wants to win.

I disagree with your comparison. Wade has gotten farther in his rookie year without shaq then Bosh has gotten in his whole career. Bosh has never gotten out of the first round. Wade is a winner. Both have had equally bad rosters excluding the shaq years.

 

[houheffna]

I disagree with your comparison. Wade has gotten farther in his rookie year without shaq then Bosh has gotten in his whole career. Bosh has never gotten out of the first round. Wade is a winner. Both have had equally bad rosters excluding the shaq years.

People used to say the same thing about Garnett...given the players, Bosh can be successful in the playoffs.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

I disagree with your comparison. Wade has gotten farther in his rookie year without shaq then Bosh has gotten in his whole career. Bosh has never gotten out of the first round. Wade is a winner. Both have had equally bad rosters excluding the shaq years.

People used to say the same thing about Garnett...given the players, Bosh can be successful in the playoffs.

Completely different, KG played against much better competition and he did make it out to the wcf with cassel and spreewell. KG played against much better competition than the crappy east teams that Bosh does.

 

[Shakes]

I'll give you that one, Bosh should have been able to beat the Nets with home court advantage in 06/07. Given the NJ front court was Jason Collins and Mikki Moore, there's not a lot of excuses you can make for him there.

 

[houheffna]

Completely different, KG played against much better competition and he did make it out to the wcf with cassel and spreewell. KG played against much better competition than the crappy east teams that Bosh does.

Garnett had better teams when he would lose in first round too, so it kind of evens out...

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

Completely different, KG played against much better competition and he did make it out to the wcf with cassel and spreewell. KG played against much better competition than the crappy east teams that Bosh does.

Garnett had better teams when he would lose in first round too, so it kind of evens out...

No he didn't, all he had was wally szerbieck and terrell brandon till he broke down. He also made everyone he played with better, they all had career years playing with KG. Which guys don't have with Bosh.

 

[houheffna]

No he didn't, all he had was wally szerbieck and terrell brandon till he broke down. He also made everyone he played with better, they all had career years playing with KG. Which guys don't have with Bosh.

And who did Bosh have? One year he went to the playoffs with the second highest scorer being Anthony Parker at 12ppg. Brandon is better than any guard from those playoff Raptor teams. He was an allstar and played at a high level with Garnett..."all he had" was more than what Bosh had.

And who has Garnett made better on those Timberwolves teams? Same with Wade, these are great players, but who has these guys made better? In particular Wade this year...he has decent players around him and his record is not as good as Bosh's record with Toronto. Do you think that Raptor team could win 20 games without Bosh? It would be very difficult. That team is the 5th seed in the playoffs because of Bosh, point blank.

 

[TheStig]

Back to the original point of the thread. This is exactly what I was talking about Shakes. There will be shorter value type deals dealt this summer. And as I said, the Rockets took themselves out of FA. Kmart for expirings is the exact type of deal I was talking about. I think West will be moved and others will enter the market like Martin did. I am fairly disappointed that we didn't do everything possible trade kirk + anything but noah and Rose for Martin. I think it would have been a big improvement going into FA with Rose, Martin, Deng, Noah and room for a max fa. I really think we missed an opportunity, I would have included a couple first round picks to get it done because if you add a Bron or Bosh or even an Amare to that core, you have a contender. And seeing that group of talent, any fa would be stupid not to come here.

 

[Shakes]

From reports we tried to move Kirk but couldn't. I mean Brad Miller for Kevin Martin works, but then we lose our cap space. If we could have moved Kirk and then done the Miller + picks for Martin, obviously I'm on board with it. Martin's like a better, cheaper, Ben Gordon. Heck, he's even taller so he'll make the 6'6" or you can't play SG for the Bulls crowd happy.

I'm not sure this trade means anything in the grand scheme of things though, nearly every year a bad team dumps their second tier "star" for cap relief.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

And who did Bosh have? One year he went to the playoffs with the second highest scorer being Anthony Parker at 12ppg. Brandon is better than any guard from those playoff Raptor teams. He was an allstar and played at a high level with Garnett..."all he had" was more than what Bosh had.

That team was a young up and coming team. Caladron, Ford and Bargiani were much more talented than the guys Garnett was surrounded by. He also only had Brandon for a couple years till he broke down. Neither core was better or worse than the other was my point. Not that one was signifigantly better or worse than the other.

And who has Garnett made better on those Timberwolves teams? Same with Wade, these are great players, but who has these guys made better? In particular Wade this year...he has decent players around him and his record is not as good as Bosh's record with Toronto. Do you think that Raptor team could win 20 games without Bosh? It would be very difficult. That team is the 5th seed in the playoffs because of Bosh, point blank.[/quote]

Guys like Wally, Nestorvich, Hudson and Cassell had their best year with Garnett. He also was a great defender, something that Bosh is not. Bosh is a long way from KG.

I'm not saying Bosh isn't a difference maker but he doesn't really make other guys better or defend. I am just under the impression that he isn't in that top notch, nothing wrong with it but there are only 4 or 5 guys in that tier.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

From reports we tried to move Kirk but couldn't. I mean Brad Miller for Kevin Martin works, but then we lose our cap space. If we could have moved Kirk and then done the Miller + picks for Martin, obviously I'm on board with it. Martin's like a better, cheaper, Ben Gordon. Heck, he's even taller so he'll make the 6'6" or you can't play SG for the Bulls crowd happy.

I'm not gonna touch the BG comment, I don't want to get off on that tangent but this is a perfect example of why you don't hold on to players too long, we had plenty of oppurtunities to move Kirk and without his contract we could have beaten Houston's offer.

I'm not sure this trade means anything in the grand scheme of things though, nearly every year a bad team dumps their second tier "star" for cap relief.

Really, Butler, Jamison, Martin, Shaq and Stephen Jackson were all sold for money this year, more will come in the summer.

 

[Shakes]

It's pretty clear the Bulls made a mistake with Kirk, and thought his value would go up. A fairly reasonable assumption given he'd have a bigger role and a shorter contract. "6th man of the year" was the bold prediction from some parts. His bricklaying cost them. Obviously in retrospect trading him for an expiring while they could would have been wise, but it's not like it's only the Bulls who thought Kirk would increase in value. Buy low, sell high is great in theory, the problem is you never know when low and high are until after the fact.

Shaq's an expiring contract. Butler, Jamison, Martin and Jackson were all dumped by teams winning a third or fewer of their games, which is standard procedure. When a team over .500 starts dumping their players for cash then I'll agree with you that the landscape has changed.

 

[TheStig]

Shakes wrote:

It's pretty clear the Bulls made a mistake with Kirk, and thought his value would go up. A fairly reasonable assumption given he'd have a bigger role and a shorter contract. "6th man of the year" was the bold prediction from some parts. His bricklaying cost them. Obviously in retrospect trading him for an expiring while they could would have been wise, but it's not like it's only the Bulls who thought Kirk would increase in value. Buy low, sell high is great in theory, the problem is you never know when low and high are until after the fact.

Shaq's an expiring contract. Butler, Jamison, Martin and Jackson were all dumped by teams winning a third or fewer of their games, which is standard procedure. When a team over .500 starts dumping their players for cash then I'll agree with you that the landscape has changed.

Shaq's an expiring but he was traded for someone who was supposedly retiring and got bought out and saved them money. So for PHX, it saved them a lot of money and was a cost saving move. ANd its not standard to just dump talent like that, all of those teams had similar records the year before and stuck through, so if it were common to do, it would have been done already. I promise, you will see even more of it, there is a clean line between the have and have nots, moreso than before.

 

[houheffna]

That team was a young up and coming team. Caladron, Ford and Bargiani were much more talented than the guys Garnett was surrounded by. He also only had Brandon for a couple years till he broke down. Neither core was better or worse than the other was my point. Not that one was signifigantly better or worse than the other.

Guys like Wally, Nestorvich, Hudson and Cassell had their best year with Garnett. He also was a great defender, something that Bosh is not. Bosh is a long way from KG.

Nesterovich??? Okay, the players that Bosh may have helped because he draws doubles in the post and players had to learn how to play to his strengths improving their own are talented...but Cassell wasn't? There was not dramatic improvement for a 35 year old pg at that point. Wally improved because of Garnett...how? In what way? He was the 6th pick in the draft...Garnett had Marbury, Cassell and Brandon...all allstars...c'mon man. If you don't think that right now Bosh is not a top tier frontcourt player that is fine...the argument can be made that he is top 5 easily at this point.

 

[TheStig]

houheffna wrote:

That team was a young up and coming team. Caladron, Ford and Bargiani were much more talented than the guys Garnett was surrounded by. He also only had Brandon for a couple years till he broke down. Neither core was better or worse than the other was my point. Not that one was signifigantly better or worse than the other.

Guys like Wally, Nestorvich, Hudson and Cassell had their best year with Garnett. He also was a great defender, something that Bosh is not. Bosh is a long way from KG.

Nesterovich??? Okay, the players that Bosh may have helped because he draws doubles in the post and players had to learn how to play to his strengths improving their own are talented...but Cassell wasn't? There was not dramatic improvement for a 35 year old pg at that point. Wally improved because of Garnett...how? In what way? He was the 6th pick in the draft...Garnett had Marbury, Cassell and Brandon...all allstars...c'mon man. If you don't think that right now Bosh is not a top tier frontcourt player that is fine...the argument can be made that he is top 5 easily at this point.

He made them better. All those guys had their best year as a pro playing next to KG. Look up their stats. Cassell also had his best year in Minny at the age of 34 and it was only during his time in Minny that he made an allstar team. So he wasn't an allstar before Minny. Marbs was traded after his second year before he got good and by good I mean black hole and brandon broke down after a couple years. None of those teams had were much better than the other. Not to mention the handicap of going up against much better teams in the playoffs. I think Bosh is a top tier front court player in a time with bad front court players. But KG was better back then and played against better front court players. I also think KG was a better defender and made others better. He also had better competion in the playoffs. Bosh is really good but KG at the same age was at least a notch higher.

 

[houheffna]

You have changed the argument...I never said Bosh was better than KG, that never came up until you brought it up. I said that your argument against Bosh was similar to the arguments against KG earlier in his career. That is a fact. And you use stats WAAAAAAAY too much. I remember Terrell Brandon and Sam Cassell, Cassell was doing the same stuff in Minny that he was doing in Jersey and Milwaukee. There was no dramatic difference at all in that one season and his 5 previous seasons. And I think Sprewell and Olowakondi would disagree with you also about making them better. Olowakandi sucked in Minny like he did everywhere else and Sprewell had much better years in his past.