What Theo needs to do in 2018

TC in Mississippi

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Contreras/Caratini unless they plan on using Caratini in a deal.

It serves no purpose for him to rot in AAA. It is counter productive and lessens his trade value with age.

So he will either back up or be traded and that gague will be meet by interest by other GM’s. If he is viewed as a bat first avg glove and a team is looking at that you can expect some discussion. Not saying it will amount to much

But I’m balling him up with Candy in value. Lower ranked but higher demand position. He holds similar value

The thing about Caratini is that he can play at C, 1B and DH for an AL club and be a good contact bat off the bench in the NL. If he could develop a little bit more power he'd be very valuable.
 

chibears55

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I still can hope they find a pitcher to pair with Schwarber. I still think part of his hitting woes will go away with playing catcher
Blake Odorizzi be perfect for him........

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
 

CSF77

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The thing about Caratini is that he can play at C, 1B and DH for an AL club and be a good contact bat off the bench in the NL. If he could develop a little bit more power he'd be very valuable.

I’m not sure about the rules on moving ADH to catcher in game. I’m almost thinking that the pitcher has to hit.

That said his bat has highest value as a catcher.
 

DanTown

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Cubs signings

Darvish - 6/160
Addison Reed - 4/36
Jake McGee - 3/18

Current Cubs
Arrieta - 4/100 (Brewers)
Davis - 4/60 (Astros)
Avila - 2/16 (Yankees)
Jay - 2/14 (Rangers)
 

DanTown

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I don't see Montgomery on your list. Would you really just let him go? I would not. He's has to be part of that team. I'd also re-sign Duensing. Plus that rotation is not good enough IMHO. I don't think Lester will be any more than a #3 from this point forward. I'm unsure on Jake. I've never liked the mechanics as guys who throw across their body always get hurt. He seems to have dodged the bullet so far but if you sign him to that deal and lose one of the first three years to injury it's a pretty bad contract.

Montgomery would be in the pen and Maples/camp standout would be one spot. I don't love Duesing if you have Montgomery in your bullpen as while he was effective, I'd rather get a higher quality arm like McGee (who has some experience closing games) than Duensing.
 

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TC in Mississippi

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Cubs signings

Darvish - 6/160
Addison Reed - 4/36
Jake McGee - 3/18

Current Cubs
Arrieta - 4/100 (Brewers)
Davis - 4/60 (Astros)
Avila - 2/16 (Yankees)
Jay - 2/14 (Rangers)

If the Cubs could really get Davis at 4/$60 why wouldn't they sign him and Arietta at that 4/$100 for the same price as Darvish? The problem is I think their numbers are crazy. Davis is getting more than $60 mil and Arrieta is likely to get $160 plus. It's Darvish who's value has dropped.
 

anotheridiot

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Darvish just shit the bed in two world series starts.

Davis is eyeing that Chapman deal of 20 per and Arrieta is looking at the 30 that grienke and kershaw get.

There is going to be a ton of stupid money being spent this year, I wont be surprised if the cubs sign davis for said stupid money. Lets just hope we find someone that is money in the 8th inning.
 

beckdawg

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There is going to be a ton of stupid money being spent this year, I wont be surprised if the cubs sign davis for said stupid money. Lets just hope we find someone that is money in the 8th inning.

Don't be so quick to jump to that conclusion. I've read that many teams may be tight with money in order to save long term space for the 2019 FA period which has a number of big names. Plus certain teams like the dodgers in particular are in a position where they really don't want to be taking on more money because they are at risk of dropping their first round pick 10 spots and if they sign someone outside the organization they may end up also giving up their second round pick.

Overall the problem as I see it is there's a lot of good players in this class but no one who's an "OMG you have to sign." The top 3 starters(Arrieta, Darvish, Tanaka) all have question marks on them. Martinez and Hosmer are both good hitters but limited positionally. Moustakas has been inconsistent throughout his career. Cain's pretty good but not top tier. Davis is a top tier closer. Lynn is like a #3 starter.

Plus if you look at the playoff teams few of them really are in a situation where they have to go get a guy. Oddly the cubs are one of the few. But the Astros, Yankees and Dodgers are all pretty young and deep and in the case of the Dodgers/Yankees they likely want to get below the luxury tax if they can. Washington and Boston probably need some parts but starting pitching wouldn't seem to be their biggest need. Arizona probably tries to re-sign Martinez but doubt they go nuts given how much money they owe Greinke. Cleveland wont have a ton of money to spend either. I suppose the argument is there for some fringe playoff teams like St. Louis doing stuff but if you look at the number of teams over .500 outside of the mentioned teams you're talking about those plus the small market Twins, the small-ish market Brewers, and colorado.

So of the FA I'm not really sure people go that nuts. On davis perhaps I can see it as he's really the only elite guy out there but I see the rest of the market being pretty conservative.
 

TC in Mississippi

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Don't be so quick to jump to that conclusion. I've read that many teams may be tight with money in order to save long term space for the 2019 FA period which has a number of big names. Plus certain teams like the dodgers in particular are in a position where they really don't want to be taking on more money because they are at risk of dropping their first round pick 10 spots and if they sign someone outside the organization they may end up also giving up their second round pick.

Overall the problem as I see it is there's a lot of good players in this class but no one who's an "OMG you have to sign." The top 3 starters(Arrieta, Darvish, Tanaka) all have question marks on them. Martinez and Hosmer are both good hitters but limited positionally. Moustakas has been inconsistent throughout his career. Cain's pretty good but not top tier. Davis is a top tier closer. Lynn is like a #3 starter.

Plus if you look at the playoff teams few of them really are in a situation where they have to go get a guy. Oddly the cubs are one of the few. But the Astros, Yankees and Dodgers are all pretty young and deep and in the case of the Dodgers/Yankees they likely want to get below the luxury tax if they can. Washington and Boston probably need some parts but starting pitching wouldn't seem to be their biggest need. Arizona probably tries to re-sign Martinez but doubt they go nuts given how much money they owe Greinke. Cleveland wont have a ton of money to spend either. I suppose the argument is there for some fringe playoff teams like St. Louis doing stuff but if you look at the number of teams over .500 outside of the mentioned teams you're talking about those plus the small market Twins, the small-ish market Brewers, and colorado.

So of the FA I'm not really sure people go that nuts. On davis perhaps I can see it as he's really the only elite guy out there but I see the rest of the market being pretty conservative.

I look at it and see the whole market coming down to the Yankees and Dodgers. These are the teams that have always set the market but it's pretty unclear if either one will do so this year. The Dodgers, after arb rewards, will only be $20-$30 mil short of the maximum penalty phase of the luxury tax and they've have to consider that they'll have to figure out how to pay Kershaw before his opt out next year. Plus they have bullpen and depth needs that will cost some money. I'd be shocked if they sign anyone with an AAV of more than $10 mil this year. The Yankees aren't close to the maximum but they could get there fast. If Tanaka opts out I can see them signing one of Arrieta or Darvish but if he doesn't you would think Lance Lynne or Alex Cobb make more sense for them financially. If those two teams aren't setting off bidding wards it's hard to see any record contracts coming. I think Milwaukee will spend a little but they still have young players coming and if they want to make a big splash next year probably makes more sense. Minnesota isn't going to spend. KC is likely going rebuild. Philadelphia is going to spend but probably not overspend and Atlanta could do the same although they could also sit back and wait until next year when they have a permanent GM in place. Bottom line is that bidding wars are started by big spending teams and, as you say, there might not be many of those, especially if Los Angeles and New York play it conservatively.
 

DanTown

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I don’t see how Cobb or a non-Arrieta/Darvish fills a need here. He’s your four if you sign him but that top three is frankly not WS contending level and it’s not like you have high value TOR arms coming through the system. When the Cubs put this together the way they did (seeking out bats via the initial rebuild), there comes a time when you have to spend FA dollars or high level prospects for your pitching. They gave up Torres to get Chapman and thankfully they won that WS and they gave up Eloy/Cease to get Q.

IF the Cubs choose to not go that route, it would mean to me they’re saving money for Harper and if that’s the case, they should try and trade Heyward for usable depth, even if they have to eat 20-30 million of it.
 

beckdawg

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I look at it and see the whole market coming down to the Yankees and Dodgers. These are the teams that have always set the market but it's pretty unclear if either one will do so this year. The Dodgers, after arb rewards, will only be $20-$30 mil short of the maximum penalty phase of the luxury tax and they've have to consider that they'll have to figure out how to pay Kershaw before his opt out next year. Plus they have bullpen and depth needs that will cost some money. I'd be shocked if they sign anyone with an AAV of more than $10 mil this year. The Yankees aren't close to the maximum but they could get there fast. If Tanaka opts out I can see them signing one of Arrieta or Darvish but if he doesn't you would think Lance Lynne or Alex Cobb make more sense for them financially. If those two teams aren't setting off bidding wards it's hard to see any record contracts coming. I think Milwaukee will spend a little but they still have young players coming and if they want to make a big splash next year probably makes more sense. Minnesota isn't going to spend. KC is likely going rebuild. Philadelphia is going to spend but probably not overspend and Atlanta could do the same although they could also sit back and wait until next year when they have a permanent GM in place. Bottom line is that bidding wars are started by big spending teams and, as you say, there might not be many of those, especially if Los Angeles and New York play it conservatively.

I'm not sure LA spends much at all. They have such a deep system and frankly a bunch of redundant parts already I think they will be active in trades. For example, they have Bellinger to play 1B but also Adrian Gonzalez on a 1 year ~$23 mil deal. If they were to pay that down a little he'd be an attractive piece to someone. Their starting pitching is also needlessly messy. Kazmir has one year and $17 mil left. Kershaw is also there and as you mention they will look to lock him up even more securely than he is presently. Rich hill has 2 years left. McCarthy has 1 year left. Ryu has one year left. Maeda has several years left. Alex Wood is still in arb. And that's before you even start talking about the young guys like Urias who will be back and Walker Buehler who's basically ready now. Moving potentially McCarthy and Kazmir might make sense for them as well.
 

CSF77

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I don’t see how Cobb or a non-Arrieta/Darvish fills a need here. He’s your four if you sign him but that top three is frankly not WS contending level and it’s not like you have high value TOR arms coming through the system. When the Cubs put this together the way they did (seeking out bats via the initial rebuild), there comes a time when you have to spend FA dollars or high level prospects for your pitching. They gave up Torres to get Chapman and thankfully they won that WS and they gave up Eloy/Cease to get Q.

IF the Cubs choose to not go that route, it would mean to me they’re saving money for Harper and if that’s the case, they should try and trade Heyward for usable depth, even if they have to eat 20-30 million of it.

Kaplin was on this thought. Trade Heyward to SFG for Shark and Melancon. Melancon is a bad contract and to move a contract the size of Heyward's you have to take on bad contract. But Heyward excels in SFG's vast RF while Shark was a Cub and a change of scenery could help Melancon.

He was also on board with trading for Archer. But he was saying Schwarber and Happ. So I don't know how that would play out. Think he suggested Baez to 3B and Bryant to RF or LF. They would still have to find a 2nd corner OF. So pretty much of a reach.
 

beckdawg

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Kaplin was on this thought. Trade Heyward to SFG for Shark and Melancon. Melancon is a bad contract and to move a contract the size of Heyward's you have to take on bad contract. But Heyward excels in SFG's vast RF while Shark was a Cub and a change of scenery could help Melancon.

He was also on board with trading for Archer. But he was saying Schwarber and Happ. So I don't know how that would play out. Think he suggested Baez to 3B and Bryant to RF or LF. They would still have to find a 2nd corner OF. So pretty much of a reach.

Strikes me as a bad deal for the cubs honestly. Melancon is making $15 mil, $19 mil and $19 mil over the remained of his deal. Shark is making $19 x 3. So you're taking on 3 years $110 mil. Next year is the last year Heyward is really expensive at $28.2 mil. The final 5 years of his deal aren't even that expensive being between $20-22 mil. You only need to be roughly a 2.5 war player to be value at that price. 3 of the last 4 years Heyward has been worth 1.5 war on defense alone. Finding 1 war out of his bat isn't that hard and I'd especially like to see what Chili Davis does with him. Pretty obvious that what ever they have done to Heyward just wasn't as effective as what Atlanta and St. Louis did. Could easily just be a new set of eyes on him helps.

Plus, you then leave a giant hole in your outfield defense not to mention the leadership qualities that Heyward brings. I mean you'd basically then have to go out and sign Cain in order to fix the issues you created and I guess put Almora in RF. And if you look at basically anything the cubs front office has said about Schwarber it's incredibly unlikely they will deal him in my eyes which necessitates you keeping 2 good defenders range wise in the other two spots.

Honestly think people are still craping on Heyward too much for 2016. He wasn't that bad as a hitter this year. He hit .259/.326/.389 after all. His last year with the braves(2014) he was a 4 win player and hit .271/.351/.384. The only real difference between those seasons was his walk rate in 2014 was 10.3% and this year it was 8.5%(career 10.4%) and his BABIP in 2014 was .308 this year it was .284(career .300). The idea that you would move Bryant to RF makes your RF defense worse and 2B defense worse presuming Happ or Zobrist is there. I also think Baez probably holds less value defensively at 3B for the cubs given a lot of why you like him is his ability to turn double plays up the middle and his ability to apply tags in the run game.
 

beckdawg

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Here's how I'd play this out if I were the cubs. Right now if you use MLBtraderumor's arb estimates the cubs have $136.3M on the books for 2018. I'd keep La Stella at $1 mil. I'd likely try to re-sign long term Hendricks, Bryant and Russell but obviously you keep them at $4.9 mil, $8.9 mil and $2.3 mil. I'd non-tender Grimm at $2.4 mil, Rondon at $6.3 mil and Martin at $4.9 mil. I suppose you gotta consider keeping Wilson at $4.3 mil especially given he and Monty are your pen lefties. So with those 3 nontenders you're looking at $13.6 mil comming off the $136.3 mil for a total of $122.7 mil.

I'm going to play with a couple assumptions. 1) cubs want to be under $197 mil luxury tax. 2) the cubs keep ~$20 mil under that for in season moves. That leaves you $54.3 mil to play around with. Needs would be back up C and a 5th OF positionally if you go with 12 bats and 13 pitchers. Other 10 bats would be Heyward, Almora, Happ, Schwarber, Zobrist, Rizzo, Baez, Russell, Bryant and Contreras. You'd actually also have La Stella, Zagunis, Taylor Davis(C), Ali Solis(C), Chris Dominguez(3b/1b/corner OF), and Caratini(C) Hannemann(CF) on the 40 man as well. In terms of pitching needs you are talking about 2 starters with the other 3 being Q, Hendricks and Lester. In relievers you're looking at Edwards, Maples, Monty, Wilson, Strop needing 3 guys to fill out your 8. Other pitchers on the 40 man are Tseng, Mills, Williams Perez(SP), Scott Carroll(RP), Zastryzny(both), Carasiti(RP), Mills(SP), Butler(SP), Ryan Williams(60 day DL I believe so not tech on 40 man) Luke Farrell(SP I think).

In terms of C Solis is org depth and likely Davis is too. Wouldn't shock me if they non-tender Solis to protect some other guys from rule 5. I imagine if you don't package Caratini that he and davis are your #3/4 C on depth in AAA. For the back up C, I mentioned earlier I'd try to re-sign Rivera to a $2-3 mil deal. He gives you experience and he's decent defensively. If not him I'd look for a similar profile LH C bat at around the same price. In terms of your 5th OF it's almost certainly going to be in house and likely between Hannemann and Zagunis. I'm partial to Hannemann just because he's the stronger defender. Zagunis is purely a corner guy. In my eyes I'd consider him another potential interesting 2nd tier trade piece

In terms of pitching, I'd likely give Carasiti every chance to replace Grimm as your long-ish RH reliever. He's cheap and has good stuff. I think you have to look to re-sign Davis. the pen looks pretty sparse if you're moving Edwards purely to closer. 4 years $72 mil is likely in the range you're talking. That leaves you one slot to play around with. Assuming $18 mil/year on Davis and $2 mil on rivera you're down to ~$34 mil left to play with. More on that last reliever after discussing starters.

With $34 mil left to play with you have options. Let's start with the easier #5 slot. There's a number of directions you could go but I think what the cubs are going to do is sign a vet to a "prove it" 1 year deal with maybe an option and let that player duke it out with Tseng and other guys on the 40 man. Perhaps you even throw in Monty but for my money I want him in the pen. Hard to say exactly who that player will be but to throw some names out that look like potential cubs types... Jhoulys Chacin, Jaime Garcia, Wade Miley(if you think you can fix him) and Andrew Cashner. Think something in the $7-8 mil range gets you one of those guys though you might need 2 years which isn't a huge deal.

That then leaves you with worst case $26 mil. Here's where this gets interesting in my eyes. You're missing one reliever(likely a 7th or 8th inning guy) and a starter. The obvious thing I've not touched at all here is trades. I still believe the cubs are going to move one of Happ or Baez. With Zobrist and La Stella they are pretty covered at 2B to have 2 other guys doing the same thing. Most of the chatter is on trading for Archer or whomever but you could in theory get Davis back and then go after someone like Colome instead. It's estimated he would cost $5.5 mil in arb. $20 mil might be enough to nab Darvish/Arrieta/Tanaka and if you're confident you wont need much in season moves you still have ~$20 mil to play with. Going into the season with $15 mil instead of $20 mil if it's the difference between Darvish and not Darivsh likely isn't a huge issue. On the other hand if the right starter present himself trade wise you could move Happ/Baez plus other parts and use that money on Holland/Reed/Marrow...etc.

So long story short, the only real linch pin from my perspective is getting Davis re-sign. He's realistically the hardest thing for them to replace as they likely need at least 2 quality bullpen guys and other than him there's not a great deal of choice there. With starters you have options in FA even if you have to go down to someone like Cobb. In an ideal world I'd love the cubs and rays to find some way to work a deal for Archer/Colome for say Baez(or happ)/Caratini/Zagunis/Alzolay and one or two others. Rays get salary relief and the cubs fill their two biggest needs.
 

CSF77

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I believe that they feel Tseng is not ready yet. He on got a handful of games at Iowa and yes he did impress.

Honestly if I wanted Tseng as my long term 5 and I felt he needed seasoning then I would do one of two things.

1: buy another flip. This is unlikely with Boz gone. That was the deal before. Find a wreck get him with Boz then sell. Now they have a guy that has worked with younger pitchers and helped turn them into major league starters. So this scenario really is missing a beat.

2. Toss Montgomery out there until June. He is going to start in S/T anyways. Just saying.

You could toss out start Butler and sell him at the dead line. Again this falls under Boz but Hickey could work with him as a unestablished young starter.

Honestly I feel locking up the 5 with a contract like Cobb creates a log jam and getting a guy like Hickey makes no sense. So if they go this way it sends mixed signals.


On the pen: I’m pretty sure that they toss Grimm and Rondon. Strop is on a contract. Montgomery holds value as a swing. Wilson falls under the “why did his B.B. peak when that was not a issue before”. Add to it we are talking 17 innings vs a privious track record.

All in all Carasiti is a option as isMaples. I believe Maples has greatness ahead of himself and I’m expecting him to be a scary force to deal with next year.

Honestly I can see the Addison Reed - 4/36 angle. He has closed but he is a set up. This opens a door of opertunity for Maples. And honestly he has the nastiest slider I’ve seen sense Woody.
 

beckdawg

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1: buy another flip. This is unlikely with Boz gone. That was the deal before. Find a wreck get him with Boz then sell. Now they have a guy that has worked with younger pitchers and helped turn them into major league starters. So this scenario really is missing a beat.

Think you're looking at this the wrong way. The reason you sign someone like Anderson this past year isn't because you want to flip them. It's because you're trying to create depth. You typically don't get through a season without multiple injuries to starters so you want at least 8 guys. You don't just want to hand a position to a guy if at all possible. By bringing in a vet you give yourself several outs going into spring training. If the young guy beats the vet out then chances are you can recoup some of the money you put into him by dealing him to a team who gets a pitcher hurt. If the vet turns out to be Hammel then great.

And the other thing is most teams don't want to commit a ton of money to their #5 starter. So, it's not like a case where you have the 3 they do now and you go after archer and cobb as your #5. That's an ass load of money for your #5 starter. This isn't just a cubs things. When Duncan was with STL they did this seemingly every year. They'd find a guy who wasn't heavily gone after in FA, coach him up as their #5 and he'd end up being an all-star or some crap like that. The facts are there's often a ton of value in guys that get over looked. Houston got Charlie Morton for 2 years $14 mil and at the time most ridiculed the signing. He put up 3.3 fWAR this year which more than paid for both years.

Now that's not always going to play out but you're not talking about big risks here to gamble on. If you're paying a guy $8 mil a year you're only expecting him to be worth about 1 war. Unless you're god awful if you get through a season you're likely at 1.5-2 war. Matt Moore had a 5.52 ERA and he was worth 1 war by pitching 174.1 innings.
 

Hammer

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My impression is that Cubs:
a) don't need another C with Contreras and Caratini
b) don't need another CF/leadoff with Almora and Happ
c) don't really need #5 SP with Montgomery and Tseng in the fold

On the other hand, things this team lacks:
a) quality TOR starter (some of the options are Otani via. posting, Arietta, Darvish via. FA, Archer, Cole via. trade)
b) closer (either resign Davis or try to find replacement via. FA or trade)
c) add more help to the bullpen

All in all, I'd say team has field positions covered for next 3-5 years with Contreras, Caratini, Rizzo, Baez, Happ, Russell, Bryant, Schwarber, Almora and Heyward (plus Zobrist will be there for another year or two), so people need to stop trying to find issues there (Almora and Happ have adequate leadoff and OBA potential).

On the other hand, SP rotation desperately needs another high quality arm, and IMO, that's the key obstacle for this team to stay legit World series contender.
 

CSF77

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Think you're looking at this the wrong way. The reason you sign someone like Anderson this past year isn't because you want to flip them. It's because you're trying to create depth. You typically don't get through a season without multiple injuries to starters so you want at least 8 guys. You don't just want to hand a position to a guy if at all possible. By bringing in a vet you give yourself several outs going into spring training. If the young guy beats the vet out then chances are you can recoup some of the money you put into him by dealing him to a team who gets a pitcher hurt. If the vet turns out to be Hammel then great.

And the other thing is most teams don't want to commit a ton of money to their #5 starter. So, it's not like a case where you have the 3 they do now and you go after archer and cobb as your #5. That's an ass load of money for your #5 starter. This isn't just a cubs things. When Duncan was with STL they did this seemingly every year. They'd find a guy who wasn't heavily gone after in FA, coach him up as their #5 and he'd end up being an all-star or some crap like that. The facts are there's often a ton of value in guys that get over looked. Houston got Charlie Morton for 2 years $14 mil and at the time most ridiculed the signing. He put up 3.3 fWAR this year which more than paid for both years.

Now that's not always going to play out but you're not talking about big risks here to gamble on. If you're paying a guy $8 mil a year you're only expecting him to be worth about 1 war. Unless you're god awful if you get through a season you're likely at 1.5-2 war. Matt Moore had a 5.52 ERA and he was worth 1 war by pitching 174.1 innings.

They don’t need depth. They have Montgomery, Butler and Tseng who have started on this team. Mills who started at KC and is still pretty much a 6 year control guy.

What they did last year was sign a cheep backfill with the intention of going into the deadline as a buyer for a controlled ToR with their trade chips. After that they went after another 1 year gap in Wilson looking at it as helping out this year and closer depth next. And if he excelled this year there wouldn’t have been this current situation.

So looking at the current situation: They need a TOR. And they are not going into a mega over it. That points to Archer and Nola as a back up

On a #5 starter. Honestly I would go with Montgomery unless Butler flat out steps up in S/T. Tseng I’m viewing as a long term.

The reason is simple: Apr rain outs. That creates days off in itself. Running 5 guys in Apr with the weather history in Chicago is kinda a luxury. They can get by with 4 and a spot starter as needed until they feel right by Tseng
 

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