Who Is Your Least Favorite Cub?

[Uman85]

MLB in 1900 =/= MLB in 2000.

 

[Icculus]

I'm surprised no one here mentioned Dave Smith and Dan Plesac.

 

[Captain Obvious]

MLB in 1900 =/= MLB in 2000.

Precisely why I related it to the league leaders.

 

[Deng Defense Force]

Jacque Jones
LaTroy Hawkins
Todd Hundley
Aaron Miles
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Nefi Perez
Jose Macias
Antonio Alfonseca

And nobody is working harder to get on that list than Carlos Marmol

 

[Uman85]

Jacque Jones
LaTroy Hawkins
Todd Hundley
Aaron Miles
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Nefi Perez
Jose Macias
Antonio Alfonseca

And nobody is working harder to get on that list than Carlos Marmol

Completely forgot about that son of a *****. Every time he got up in the bullpen I'd turn the game off because I knew he was going to blow it.

 

[FirstTimer]

Listing your list isn't proving shit.

Actually it is..
For people that know about baseball.

1. How is Fangraphs shit?

It's stats are wrong for 1.

2. You use it.

Any other questions.

2. I never said he wasn't shit. I used 1919 because that was the end of the dead ball period, that's why the numbers are off.

The Cubs organization has existed prior to 1919. To say Z is one of the best Cubs pitchers since 1919 and since the start of the Cubs as an organization are two completely seperate things and you're leaving out over 40 years of franchise history........and the most successful seasons of the franchise.

That's blatently Special person.

So your argument is Carlos Zambrano is one of the 10 best pitchers in Cubs history since the time they pretty much started to suck.


Trust us..we are all IMPRESSED!

Yes they do rank higher in some categories

Ok then STFU.

You didn't provide any context for your false assertions before. Going back now and trying to reframe the context is 1. Horrible. and 2. Stupid. Charlie Root was a better pitcher for the Cubs than Carlos Zambrano.

Slightly better ERA. Win % wasn't even close. Not sure how you do math... but last time I checked 52-32 was better than 47-34. DERP.

I disregard Lilly's last season since the entire team was a fucking mess.........thanks in large part to.................take a guess.

No shit they had a near identical ERA+... they had basically the same ERA. Rocket Scientist, are you?

Coming from the guy who for team that has been around since the US Grant administration said he starts his organizational rankings in 1919.

Root - He pitched with the Cubs from 1926-1941. He had 201 wins, which is most for the Cubs. From 1926-1941, that was good for 6th most wins in baseball. He struck out 1432 over those 15 seasons, which is 4th most in Cubs history and 4th from 26-41 and posted a 3.55 ERA, which was 36th best in baseball from 26-41 and 28th best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

Hutchinson - He pitched with the Cubs from 1889-1895. He had 181 wins, which is 3rd most for the Cubs. From 1885-1895, that was good for 3rd most wins in baseball. He struck out 1224 over those 7 seasons, which is 7th most in Cubs history and 2nd from 88-95 and posted a 3.56 ERA, which was 24th best in baseball from 88-95 and 29th best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

Bush - He pitched with the Cubs from 1923-1934. He had 152 wins, which is 6th most for the Cubs. From 1923-1934, that was good for 9th most wins in baseball. He struck out 712 over those 12 seasons, which is 25th most in Cubs history and 20th from 23-34 and posted a 3.81 ERA, which was 60th best in baseball from 23-34 and 38th best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

Griffith - He pitched with the Cubs from 1893-1902. He had 152 wins, which is 6th most for the Cubs. From 1893-1902, that was good for 7th most wins in baseball. He struck out 573 over those 10 seasons, which is 30th most in Cubs history and 7th from 93-02 and posted a 3.40 ERA, which was 36th best in baseball from 93-02 and 23th best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

Lee - He pitched with the Cubs from 1934-1942. He had 139 wins, which is 9th most for the Cubs. From 1934-1942, that was good for 7th most wins in baseball. He struck out 874 over those 7 seasons, which is 19th most in Cubs history and 8th from 34-42 and posted a 3.49 ERA, which was 37th best in baseball from 34-42 and 25th best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

Congrats.

You just named a ton of pitchers who are easily better than Carlos Zambrano.

1. I didn't say it was. It doesn't matter if it is a stat or not, it's better than anything you can name for evaluating a player.

It absolutely is not.

No, they agree where he ranks..

No it's not.

No where in your initial WAR, K,s Wins blah blah blah post did you mention 1919 as a qualifier. Nowhere.


So not only are you wrong, dumb, and Special person...you don't even know what you were arguing!

A simple "Search this thread" shows the ONLY two times that 1919 has been mentioned in this thread (before this very post) is recently in your post last night at 830 and at 953. You never said 1919 before....and have only changed it now..unsuccessfully to try and frame your awful argument.

Keep failing kid.

Please direct us to the point in this psot where you mention 1919.

Go

Because we're comparing things to over 100 years ago.

An even better reason to not look at wins and look at drinking prowess.

 

[FirstTimer]

Classic CO:
Big Z ranks here all time for the Cubs! he's one of the best in organizational history!

*Gets proven wrong*

I SAID since 1919!!!! *to try and weasel his way out of it*

*Searches and reviews initial post...*

Uhh..no ya didn't. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[FirstTimer]

Hey guys.

I think Jon leiber is one of the 10 best pitchers in Cubs history
From 1990-2001

 

[FirstTimer]

I remember the first Cubs game. Do you?

 

[FirstTimer]

CO's next article for the front page:

The Chicago Cubs: Celebrating 93 years of baseball greatness!

The subject of the piece will basically cover the Cubs franchise history and CO will be confused as he is not aware of any Cubs World Series titles. And he thinks Merkles Boner is some sort of Family Matters XXX parody film.

 

[nwfisch]

 

[FirstTimer]

Another idea could be CO will do rankings of every organizations top players ever but he will cut out each franchies most successful stretches of time so those players are not eligible. Interesting.

 

[nwfisch]

Another idea could be CO will do rankings of every organizations top players ever but he will cut out each franchies most successful stretches of time so those players are not eligible. Interesting.

So the Yankees wouldn't have any successful players?:lol:

 

[FirstTimer]

So the Yankees wouldn't have any successful players?:lol:

Yeah, and instead of Tris Speaker the Red Sox will be stuck with Dom Dimaggio.

 

[Rice Cube]

 

[Cloud 9]

Oh man, there's been so many. I genuinely hated LaTroy Hawkins, Glendon Rusch, Todd Hundley, Alex Gonzalez and Alfonseca. Back in the Mark Prior days that fat 6 fingered bastard Alfonseca ruined my favorite Cubs hat by signing it at a Cubs vs Sox game. Mark Prior(My hero at the time as a kid) came along and I'm holding my hat out for him to sign it, and Alfonseca grabs my hat and signs it instead. I was honestly disappointed, and extremely creeped out by his fingers touching my hat.

Other hated Cubs:
Bob Howry
Paul Bako
Bobby Hill
Shawn Estes
Hee-Seop Choi
Jason Marquis
Kevin Gregg
Robert Machado

I'm sure there's plenty more. But these are the main offenders.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Classic CO:
Big Z ranks here all time for the Cubs! he's one of the best in organizational history!

*Gets proven wrong*

I SAID since 1919!!!! *to try and weasel his way out of it*

*Searches and reviews initial post...*

Uhh..no ya didn't. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

You can go ahead and look at the links I posted, it says 1919 in there. I apologize for not making it clear. That was my bad.

I'm not gonna go in more in depth on this because well, you're blinded by whatever you want to believe to see things a little differently. Maybe he isn't a top 10 pitcher.. he's still been a really god damn good one. As for Lilly, you did the same thing that you accused me of. You didn't use the full sample size. Sure some of 2010 was on Z... but Z is a pitcher. Lilly is also a pitcher. It's not like Z destroyed the offense. The Cubs just flat out sucked. Which is also what they did for many of the last 100 years. Can we exclude those seasons too? Using Fielding Independent metrics, we can see that Z was a much better pitcher than Lilly in 2010. So I don't buy that the team was the problem.

Also, you say that you have a metric, a stat, a goldfish, a whatever that is better than WAR... well, I'd love to see it. What is it that you have that is better for evaluating a player? If it is SIERA or tERA, they date back less than WAR does... so it would be inefficient.

 

[FirstTimer]

That was my bad.

Now I see why you have teh name you do.

I'm not gonna go in more in depth

"More" In depth would require you to go in depth to begin with.

You "depth" of discussion was basically cutting out the most successful four decades of Cubs baseball and making a list on it.

Maybe he isn't a top 10 pitcher

He's not.

he's still been a really god damn good one.

:rolling:

As for Lilly, you did the same thing that you accused me of.

No. I just cut out Lilly's ONE shit year that was caused by Z blowing the team up.

You cut out over four decades of baseball.

Apples meet Special person again. I believe you met a few pages ago.

It's not like Z destroyed the offense.

Odd. Z helped destroy teams. Offensive players are part of these "teams".

Also, you say that you have a metric, a stat, a goldfish, a whatever that is better than WAR

ME>WAR

LOL at you and WAR. Get a room.

Using one stat to evaluate players F...T...L.

.

WAR is not a stat. To use it to reach ANY conclusive argument on any player is asinine...considering they can't even say for sure HOW it should be calculated.

It's a terrible way to compare players and I dismiss it as being useful at all. How many mroe wins abvoe this hypothetical replacement player is this guy worth? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....Wow, let's start counting the flaws.

 

[Captain Obvious]

"More" In depth would require you to go in depth to begin with.

You "depth" of discussion was basically cutting out the most successful four decades of Cubs baseball and making a list on it.

Root - He pitched with the Cubs from 1926-1941. He had 201 wins, which is most for the Cubs. From 1926-1941, that was good for 6th most wins in baseball. He struck out 1432 over those 15 seasons, which is 4th most in Cubs history and 4th from 26-41 and posted a 3.55 ERA, which was 36th best in baseball from 26-41 and 28th best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

Hutchinson - He pitched with the Cubs from 1889-1895. He had 181 wins, which is 3rd most for the Cubs. From 1885-1895, that was good for 3rd most wins in baseball. He struck out 1224 over those 7 seasons, which is 7th most in Cubs history and 2nd from 88-95 and posted a 3.56 ERA, which was 24th best in baseball from 88-95 and 29th best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

Bush - He pitched with the Cubs from 1923-1934. He had 152 wins, which is 6th most for the Cubs. From 1923-1934, that was good for 9th most wins in baseball. He struck out 712 over those 12 seasons, which is 25th most in Cubs history and 20th from 23-34 and posted a 3.81 ERA, which was 60th best in baseball from 23-34 and 38th best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

Griffith - He pitched with the Cubs from 1893-1902. He had 152 wins, which is 6th most for the Cubs. From 1893-1902, that was good for 7th most wins in baseball. He struck out 573 over those 10 seasons, which is 30th most in Cubs history and 7th from 93-02 and posted a 3.40 ERA, which was 36th best in baseball from 93-02 and 23th best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

Lee - He pitched with the Cubs from 1934-1942. He had 139 wins, which is 9th most for the Cubs. From 1934-1942, that was good for 7th most wins in baseball. He struck out 874 over those 7 seasons, which is 19th most in Cubs history and 8th from 34-42 and posted a 3.49 ERA, which was 37th best in baseball from 34-42 and 25th best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

Z - He pitched with the Cubs from 2002-2011. He had 125 wins, which is 15th most for the Cubs. From 2002-2011, that was good for 9th most wins in baseball. He struck out 1538 over those 10 seasons, which is 2nd most in Cubs history and 9th from 02-11 and posted a 3.6 ERA, which was 36th best in baseball from 02-11 and 31st best in Cubs history, min. 1000 IP.

As you can see, the thing that Z is best at, K's--which he ranks 2nd in the organization at-- he's only 9th in baseball in. Bush was the only other one who was lower in his league during his time. That goes to show you that Z was playing in a time when pitchers were just a lot better, but he was still in the top 10 in K's and W's. He's right there with these guys and he was facing much tougher hitters. According to you, steroids are so bad. So it's not fair to judge him on the same level when his counterparts were cheating. He's certainly in my top 10 still.

No. I just cut out Lilly's ONE shit year that was caused by Z blowing the team up.

When did Z blow the team up again? June 25th... That affected 5 of Lilly's starts. What about the others? Whats your excuse for that?

You cut out over four decades of baseball.

Apples meet Special person again. I believe you met a few pages ago.

Read what I quoted from my post up there. I didn't cut anything out.

Odd. Z helped destroy teams. Offensive players are part of these "teams".

At the end of June 25th, they were 8.5 back, do you really think that Z was the problem?

ME>WAR

LOL at you and WAR. Get a room.

Using one stat to evaluate players F...T...L.

.

WAR is not a stat. To use it to reach ANY conclusive argument on any player is asinine...considering they can't even say for sure HOW it should be calculated.

It's a terrible way to compare players and I dismiss it as being useful at all. How many mroe wins abvoe this hypothetical replacement player is this guy worth? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....Wow, let's start counting the flaws.

I never said to use one stat to evaluate players. You did. I asked what you had that was better than WAR. You have yet to answer. No, WAR is not a stat, it's a metric. Doesn't mean that you can't come to a conclusion with it. It's all-inclusive which gives you a good idea of the player's overall ability. If you feel it isn't good enough, though, feel free to show me something that is better. How is it a terrible way to compare players? This hypothetical replacement player is based on years and years of data. It's just not some guy. Again, feel free to show me something better. You can make up your own, if you'd like.

 

[FirstTimer]

Blah blah

You posting short bios of the players with stats gleemed off of a 2 second google search isn't "in depth" that's compiling data.

When did Z blow the team up again? June 25th... That affected 5 of Lilly's starts

Yes, because we clearly know that Z wasn't a pain in the ass when NOT blowing up.

I'm sure Z was an angel behind closed doors.

Are you seriously this udmb or just naive?

. What about the others? Whats your excuse for that?

Read what I quoted from my post up there.

Yes you did.

You starting at 1919 for your "analysis" cuts out over four decades of Cubs baseball.

You posting shirt biogrpahies doesn't change the fact that your Top 10 and your initial reasoning for it cut out over 40 years.

Quit being a clown.

At the end of June 25th, they were 8.5 back, do you really think that Z was the problem?

Yes.

You did.

No.

I didn't.

I never have.

Ever.

I asked what you had that was better than WAR.

ME.

it's stupid.

Fixed.

Doesn't mean that you can't come to a conclusion with it.

Yes, it does.

feel free to show me something that is better.

ME