Wikileaks

[Kerfuffle]

Okay, here is the second part of the question...you knew it was coming, admit it.....WHO makes the determination that something should be released to the public, that if it gets released that it wont cause harm????



I am not a conpiracy theorist in any way shape or form, I also do not, regardless of what one certain individual here thinks, have blind faith in our military leaders. I want to know what "really" happened on 9/11 or how much we knew ahead of time. But I honestly think opening up every piece of evidence good and bad is the wrong thing to do. Not to protect a cover-up or to blow a cover-up wide open, simply put how the information came into the system, whether humint, satty imagery, intercepted phone cons...however the information was collected does not need to be put out into the open. That can put both American and persons of other nationalities in jeapordy. The funny part of how stuff gets classified is, it's pretty much subjective. Although a system used to gather it may be classified, an individual actually marks the classisification on to it. And because the human animal is stupid, simply because a classified system was used, all of a sudden the meal that Hussein ordered from Achmed's Fallafel Stand becomes Top Secret code word. No shit I have seen things that have no business being marked a certain classification get marked that, while other things dont.

This doesn't equate. How can you say you're not a conspiracy guy and then say you want to know what "really" happened on 9/11? You already know - you saw the planes fly into the buildings and the towers fall as a result of terrorists.

 

[Kerfuffle]

How about some conspiracies that were proven true that did put American lives into harms way for the excuse that it was for the greater good?

-Tuskegee Experiment

-MK Ultra

-Operation Midnight Climax

-Cointelpro

-Gulf of Tonken incident

-Attack on the USS Liberty

short description on these please?

 

[bubbleheadchief]

Can anyone name a Gov't that isnt corrupt and guilty of hiding things from the people????

 

[phranchk]

We didn't land on the Moon.



I'm done discussing anything with Fluff. I just get way to pissed off and want to type keys I should not.

Right now I'm picturing you doing this to your computer at this very moment (sorry couldn't find it in English on youtube).

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2NhwAG-ilw[/media]

 

[phranchk]

Can anyone name a Gov't that isnt corrupt and guilty of hiding things from the people????

No, it doesn't exist. It sill bothers me though.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

This doesn't equate. How can you say you're not a conspiracy guy and then say you want to know what "really" happened on 9/11? You already know - you saw the planes fly into the buildings and the towers fall as a result of terrorists.

To keep you happy, Simply put, I do not think our gov't staged this to give us a reason to invade anyone....but keeping an open mind about things, there has been some evidence produced to say that our Gov't knew something was afoot.



Uh, no I did not see the planes fly into the buildings, I was off serving our country at the time, I was the on watch Radiomen onboard a certain US Submarine that was on station, when it came to periscope depth and found out about the seperate incidents that happened that fateful day.





And so you know, it was probably about a month after the fact before I saw the first tape of that day.

 

[supraman]

short description on these please?

Take wikileaks and change the leaks to pedia.org and ta da

 

[phranchk]

short description on these please?

-Tuskegee experiment: They gave several hundred African Americans syphilis without there knowledge and didn't treat them so they could study the effects. (edit: I misspoke here, they weren't given syphilis, they were diagnosed with syphilis, but not told they had it and were denied proper treatment so they could study the effects.)

-MK Ultra were the CIA mind control experiments

-Operation Midnight Climax they gave unsuspecting victims LSD in CIA run brothels to test the effects of LSD out. Might have been an offshoot of MK Ultra.

-Cointelpro was the FBI using a slew of illegal tactics to weaken domestic political organizations

-Gulf of Tonken, I think you know that one.

-Attack on the USS Liberty was an attack by the Israeli's on a US ship for purpose to suggest an attack on US by Egypt, in an attempt to get USA involved in the war, fighting on the Israeli side. This one isn't necessarily proven true, but there are a lot of facts that suggest so.

 

[BiscuitintheBasket]

Okay, here is the second part of the question...you knew it was coming, admit it.....WHO makes the determination that something should be released to the public, that if it gets released that it wont cause harm????



I am not a conpiracy theorist in any way shape or form, I also do not, regardless of what one certain individual here thinks, have blind faith in our military leaders. I want to know what "really" happened on 9/11 or how much we knew ahead of time. But I honestly think opening up every piece of evidence good and bad is the wrong thing to do. Not to protect a cover-up or to blow a cover-up wide open, simply put how the information came into the system, whether humint, satty imagery, intercepted phone cons...however the information was collected does not need to be put out into the open. That can put both American and persons of other nationalities in jeapordy. The funny part of how stuff gets classified is, it's pretty much subjective. Although a system used to gather it may be classified, an individual actually marks the classisification on to it. And because the human animal is stupid, simply because a classified system was used, all of a sudden the meal that Hussein ordered from Achmed's Fallafel Stand becomes Top Secret code word. No shit I have seen things that have no business being marked a certain classification get marked that, while other things dont.



i am sure most of the other guys here, ex-military or active will agree.....there are some really Special person ways of classifying things, and to be honest, every branch is different.

Yup. I wonder how much people know about the US involvement in anti-drug missions in Central and South America. Sure people can throw Panama out, but what other countries were the US in? What I find funny is I was part of some of that when I first got in service, and each mission had a different classification based on the country or region we were "exploring".

 

[bubbleheadchief]

No, it doesn't exist. It sill bothers me though.

And unfortunately phranck, we'll never see a gov't that doesn't hide things. Someone will always think they are doing the right thing for and by the people, keeping them as mushrooms. .....keeping them in the dark and feeding them shit.

 

[phranchk]

-Tuskegee experiment: They gave several hundred African Americans syphilis without there knowledge and didn't treat them so they could study the effects. (edit: I misspoke here, they weren't given syphilis, they were diagnosed with syphilis, but not told they had it and were denied proper treatment so they could study the effects.)

-MK Ultra were the CIA mind control experiments

-Operation Midnight Climax they gave unsuspecting victims LSD in CIA run brothels to test the effects of LSD out. Might have been an offshoot of MK Ultra.

-Cointelpro was the FBI using a slew of illegal tactics to weaken domestic political organizations

-Gulf of Tonken, I think you know that one.

-Attack on the USS Liberty was an attack by the Israeli's on a US ship for purpose to suggest an attack on US by Egypt, in an attempt to get USA involved in the war, fighting on the Israeli side. This one isn't necessarily proven true, but there are a lot of facts that suggest so.

I forgot Operation Northwoods, but I believe that was already discussed earlier.

 

[Kerfuffle]

And unfortunately phranck, we'll never see a gov't that doesn't hide things. Someone will always think they are doing the right thing for and by the people, keeping them as mushrooms. .....keeping them in the dark and feeding them shit.

Every gov't has its secrets and will hide things - they have to. i.e. I don't need to know the launch codes of our missiles or the secret ops missions of our Navy Seals. I trust that as a military man you have secrets you can't share and that is fine by me. I also trust that those secrets are justified for national security purposes.

 

[MassHavoc]

Can anyone name a Gov't that isnt corrupt and guilty of hiding things from the people????

I don't think that those two things have to go together. I want the corruption and illegal activities exposed, not the secrets necessary to keep people alive.

 

[phranchk]

I don't think that those two things have to go together. I want the corruption and illegal activities exposed, not the secrets necessary to keep people alive.

I agree 100%.

Unfortunately those often overlap so our government will always use the excuse it's for national security.

 

[MassHavoc]

I agree 100%.

Unfortunately those often overlap so our government will always use the excuse it's for national security.

Correct, and FOIA takes too long and 50 years to unclassify documents?

Everything should be run with transparency in mind. Weather or not it will be released.

 

[TSD]

And apparently there are some ignorant individuals that will except that excuse no matter what. Missile Codes are far different than experimenting on individuals to "see the outcome/effects".



There is no wonder the rest of the world hates us. No wonder at all.

The only thing I disagree with here is the rest of the world having the right to hate us.



They don't because they either do similar things or wish they could.



No government or nation is without stains they still refuse to wash off.

 

[R K]

The only thing I disagree with here is the rest of the world having the right to hate us.



They don't because they either do similar things or wish they could.



No government or nation is without blood on its hands.

agreed, but you get my point. There would be far less disdain if we could just mind our own business. Instead we are hypocrites in the fact we do many of the things in the name of Democracy that we frown upon from other entities.



I'm a proud Amercan but there are most certainly aspects of America I am not proud of. And those continue to rise as we go along.

 

[TSD]

Every gov't has its secrets and will hide things - they have to. i.e. I don't need to know the launch codes of our missiles or the secret ops missions of our Navy Seals. I trust that as a military man you have secrets you can't share and that is fine by me. I also trust that those secrets are justified for national security purposes.

What about say....snatching up a canadian citizen in new york, because he "might" be a terrorist, sticking him in a torture pit in syria for a year, then realize, shit, hes not a terrorist, then letting him go.





Think we should know about things like that? Because that exact thing happened. Taking people, you dont know for sure are terrorists, throwing them in a foreign country with no laws against torture, torturing them, then realizing WHOOPS! That means they can pretty much do that to anyone they want for any reason. Poor bastard didnt even get so much as an apology. Shit like below should not be happening. The US should not be snatching up people, on suspision alone and doing shit like this. An admitted terrorist? Fine take him and electrecute his ballsack for all I care. But when you dont know whether someone is a bad guy or not, you just dont do shit like this.



The Canadian government has acknowledged for the first time that one of the most well-known victims of CIA 'extraordinary rendition' is a completely innocent man. On Monday, a judge concluded a major investigation into the case of Maher Arar. The Syrian-born Canadian was detained nearly four years ago by U.S. authorities at JFK airport and was sent to Syria where he was jailed for a year and repeatedly tortured.

 

[Kerfuffle]

What about say....snatching up a canadian citizen in new york, because he "might" be a terrorist, sticking him in a torture pit in syria for a year, then realize, shit, hes not a terrorist, then letting him go.





Think we should know about things like that? Because that exact thing happened. Taking people, you dont know for sure are terrorists, throwing them in a foreign country with no laws against torture, torturing them, then realizing WHOOPS! That means they can pretty much do that to anyone they want for any reason. Poor bastard didnt even get so much as an apology.



The Canadian government has acknowledged for the first time that one of the most well-known victims of CIA 'extraordinary rendition' is a completely innocent man. On Monday, a judge concluded a major investigation into the case of Maher Arar. The Syrian-born Canadian was detained nearly four years ago by U.S. authorities at JFK airport and was sent to Syria where he was jailed for a year and repeatedly tortured.

Is it wrong? yes. Should we know about it? No.

 

[TSD]

Is it wrong? yes. Should we know about it? No.

Wow. Just Wow.



You would rather not know your government is torturing completely innocent people?



I guess until they start doing it to white christians amiright?