Wikileaks

[Kerfuffle]

It is why you question the Government. This is why no one likes to discuss anything with you.



And just a tiny FYI they didn't just take land, they killed them in cold blood. Women and Children. In the name of the American People. Brutally and in many cases un provoked.



Like I said go preach your "Proud to be an American" in Browning Montana. Let me know so I can watch and laugh at the same time.

A single person in the military leaked this stuff to Wikileaks. You seem to find conspiracy in everything.

 

[supraman]

Here is the question then, just how much freedom to information should the American People have?



I am not going to argue that 75% of all politicians out there are there to line their own pockets. I know for a fact that various parts of our intel services take the whole "Protecting the American People" too far. but what informatin should the average citizen have access to? Trust me, there are in fact things that the average citizen does not need to know, because it does seriously stand a chance of becoming detrimental to our safety and the ability for people like me and my brothers in arms to protect you.



i am not going to get into the whole debate of legal/illegal wars...simply put we are damned if we do/damned if we dont as the worlds police....no one will ever be happy.



Again, just how much access do you think you need as the average american citizen??

That's a very difficult and good question. I can only give you one example that jump out at me immediately. Everything to do with 9/11 EVERYTHING. Let us discern what actually happened.



There are certainly things the average citizen needs to know. Military tech research, i.e. the old skunkworks yeah we dont need to know about it but.



Here I think this might be an answer. Everything except information that can lead to direct harm physical harm to American Citizens and military tech research.

 

[Kerfuffle]

No one claimed it wasnt. They pondered the notion that the administration may have known about it but did nothing. Its the same concept of the pearl harbor consipiracy (which admittedly has far more circumstantial evidence).



That the government knew an attack was coming but did nothing. Why they would do that in pearl harbor its quite obvious, its no secret FDR wanted to join the war. At the time the US population was staunchly isolationist and needed a pearl harbor to rally the country to support joining the war and conveniently, the main target of the Japanese was the American Carriers that were supposed to be present in pearl, but conveniently were not, if they were the pacific fleet would have been utterly shattered and the beginning of American involvement in the war could have gone very differently.



Again, there is no direct evidence, therefore there is no proof the government "let" pearl harbor happen.





This is the style of consipiracy people are talking about in this thread, not that the US govt actually orchestrated 9/11, but knew it was going to happen and let it, for whatever reason, I mean we invaded 2 countries with little no know resistance from the US populace, because of 9/11. No 9/11 no invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan..period.



But again there is no proof, but in both situations the idea is plausible.



The Gulf of Tonkin incident was also thought to be the same situation.



So was the sinking of an American Ship that sparked the Spanish American war.





Again, no direct evidence has ever been presented that the Government allowed nor had any involvement in these incidents, and I am not saying they did. I am just saying, I wouldnt put it past them.

I just don't believe any U.S. leader with any sense of human decency and respect for life would intentionally allow the attacks of 9/11 or Pearl Harbor to happen. Think of all the people that would have to be 'silenced' to cover that up. And you know someone would spill the beans over time in that they were ordered by the President to ignore the attack, blah, blah, blah. Also, think of the risk to the President if Pearl Harbor cost us the war - FDR would not have known the outcome and the risk would be too much. Not to mention allowing thousands of U.S. military to die needlessly if he had known.



As for the sinking of the Maine in 1898 that sparked the Spanish American war - that was not a conspiracy either but lack of technology and evidence at that time to prove it was actually just an accident. Emotions and fears took hold and Spain was blamed. Years later the U.S. admitted it was likely an accidental explosion.



The thing we differ on it seems is you think these things could actually be true - not that you're saying they're true but you are entertaining the idea that the conspiracy could be there. I just don't see it that way at all.

 

[R K]

Conspiracy theorists



I am sure that Manning and Assange have plenty of documentation to confirm how JFK was killed.

Assange is just the pawn.



If you chose to believe everything the Government tells you then I don't know what to say. There is no doubt they LIE!

 

[supraman]

I just don't believe any U.S. leader with any sense of human decency and respect for life would intentionally allow the attacks of 9/11 or Pearl Harbor to happen. Think of all the people that would have to be 'silenced' to cover that up. And you know someone would spill the beans over time in that they were ordered by the President to ignore the attack, blah, blah, blah. Also, think of the risk to the President if Pearl Harbor cost us the war - FDR would not have known the outcome and the risk would be too much. Not to mention allowing thousands of U.S. military to die needlessly if he had known.



As for the sinking of the Maine in 1898 that sparked the Spanish American war - that was not a conspiracy either but lack of technology and evidence at that time to prove it was actually just an accident. Emotions and fears took hold and Spain was blamed. Years later the U.S. admitted it was likely an accidental explosion.



The thing we differ on it seems is you think these things could actually be true - not that you're saying they're true but you are entertaining the idea that the conspiracy could be there. I just don't see it that way at all.

Which is just ignorant.

 

[MassHavoc]

Just a gentle reminder to try to keep the personal attacks out of this.

 

[R K]

A single person in the military leaked this stuff to Wikileaks. You seem to find conspiracy in everything.

I didn't find conspiracy in anything. Nor did I even suggest it. Where the **** did you get your education again?



Conspiracy had not one fucking thing to do with the post you replied.



Not one thing. It was fucking fact! Again if you are a fucking sheep and chose to believe what ever is put in front of you so be it. Thank GOD you are far and few between.





And where 911 is concerned it is fucking FACT the US Government was INFORMED there was something imminent. FACT!



That does not mean they "allowed it to happen" or even "knew what was going to happen". Which would lead to the "conspiracy".

 

[R K]

Just a gentle reminder to try to keep the personal attacks out of this.

Fucking Ignorance is bliss.

 

[jakobeast]

I just don't believe any U.S. leader with any sense of human decency and respect for life would intentionally allow the attacks of 9/11 or Pearl Harbor to happen. Think of all the people that would have to be 'silenced' to cover that up. And you know someone would spill the beans over time in that they were ordered by the President to ignore the attack, blah, blah, blah. Also, think of the risk to the President if Pearl Harbor cost us the war - FDR would not have known the outcome and the risk would be too much. Not to mention allowing thousands of U.S. military to die needlessly if he had known.



As for the sinking of the Maine in 1898 that sparked the Spanish American war - that was not a conspiracy either but lack of technology and evidence at that time to prove it was actually just an accident. Emotions and fears took hold and Spain was blamed. Years later the U.S. admitted it was likely an accidental explosion.



The thing we differ on it seems is you think these things could actually be true - not that you're saying they're true but you are entertaining the idea that the conspiracy could be there. I just don't see it that way at all.

FDR may not have known the outcome, but lord knows we needed to get out of the Great Depression (what was so great about it?). You can't argue that WW2 didn't lift us out of it, and the ensuing baby boom/housing boom/economic boom wasn't an amazing thing for our nation.

 

[Kerfuffle]

Congress had a second investigation back in the 70s regarding both the JFK and MLK assassinations, both using the same sources as the Warren Commission. Take a wild guess which one isn't taught in school and why. It's all a matter of public record.



Besides that, it's funny people keep saying "those crazy conspiracy theorists" especially when it comes to 9/11. Because everyone, no matter what you believe, is choosing to believe in a conspiracy theory explanation. It just depends on which version you believe. Personally, I'm taking them all "under advisement", especially the one in which that party has a history of LYING TO US.

Yeah they bungled that - you're referring to the 1978 House Investigation into the Kennedy assassination. The thing went fine until like the last day when some scientist announced "with a chance of 95% or greater there was a shot fired from the grassy knoll". That shocked the House. Problem was it was disproved many years later. The scientist had based that conclusion on the location of Officer McClaine that day who was on a motorbike. They assumed he was the one with the open microphone on his bike that day. They also said in order to prove their theory McClaine would have had to be at the the intersection of Elm and Houston streets. He wasn't - he has just turned right from Main street onto Houston street. Therefore the conclusion made of a 4th shot was wrong.

 

[Kerfuffle]

FDR may not have known the outcome, but lord knows we needed to get out of the Great Depression (what was so great about it?). You can't argue that WW2 didn't lift us out of it, and the ensuing baby boom/housing boom/economic boom wasn't an amazing thing for our nation.

WWII definitely got us out of the Depression

 

[Kerfuffle]

Further more Fluff, Im completely with you on the government having first person involvment in 9/11 what with remote control planes disappearing its own citizens etc etc with the rest of the foil hat club.



But your resistance to the idea, the government may "ignore" a little important intel because the result may allow the administration to further some ends, is laughable. (Again not saying they did).





The reason i say that, is I bet you have personally entertained every single Obama conspiracy that has ever had the pleasure of surfacing.





WAIT! I can put it in terms that are more your speed.





God, let Jesus get crucified, to secure an end.

He could have stopped it, but he didnt.

I'm not a conspiracy believer - period. Do I believe there are classified government secrets? Sure. But I just don't believe in leaders allowing massive strikes against our own people to take place knowingly. There are no Obama conspiracies that I'm aware of. Is there one you heard that you would like me to comment on?

 

[supraman]

WWII definitely got us out of the Depression

Many experts would disagree. There is no real consensus about it.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I agree with TSD. The "leaks" were obvious. North Korea is unstable and may collapse. Putin is a dictator. Things in Iraq weren't going well. These weren't shocking revelations.



As for Pearl Harbor FDR knew but he didn't know. When he cut off oil and scrap iron shipments to Japan he knew they would attack. The naval intel was that Japan would attack Manila harbor which they did the same day. Bush knew Al Qadea wanted to attack but again he didn't know where. These conspiracies give the government way more credit than they deserve. JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald the Warren Commission did a shitty job investigating it but he did do it. He wanted to be remembered for eternity to be famous and he got what he wanted. RFK is more convoluted not sure what that was. MLK was shot by James Earl Ray but he was paid for it by some rich racists not sure who.

Good post - agree with everything here

 

[phranchk]

I'm not a conspiracy believer - period. Do I believe there are classified government secrets? Sure. But I just don't believe in leaders allowing massive strikes against our own people to take place knowingly. There are no Obama conspiracies that I'm aware of. Is there one you heard that you would like me to comment on?

No Obama conspiracies?

He's a muslim, he's a terrorist due to his ties to Bill Ayers, he's not a US citizen.

That's just a few.

 

[supraman]

I'm not a conspiracy believer - period. Do I believe there are classified government secrets? Sure. But I just don't believe in leaders allowing massive strikes against our own people to take place knowingly. There are no Obama conspiracies that I'm aware of. Is there one you heard that you would like me to comment on?

you are fucking kidding right.



Conspiracy one - He is not an American Citizen. Here's what fuels this claim they will not release his actual birth certificate but only a copy of it.



Conspiracy two - He is a muslim. The fuel? He grew up in a Muslim nation and went to a Muslim school as a young boy



I'm sure I am leaving 1 or 2 more out.



Oh yeah there was the short lived conspiracy that since Roberts bungled the Oath of Office that Obama was not legally the president until it got fixed.

 

[Kerfuffle]

you are fucking kidding right.



Conspiracy one - He is not an American Citizen. Here's what fuels this claim they will not release his actual birth certificate but only a copy of it.



Conspiracy two - He is a muslim. The fuel? He grew up in a Muslim nation and went to a Muslim school as a young boy



I'm sure I am leaving 1 or 2 more out.



Oh yeah there was the short lived conspiracy that since Roberts bungled the Oath of Office that Obama was not legally the president until it got fixed.

Okay I got you - I thought you guys were going to tell me of some Obama conspiracy to allow more US citizens to get killed in order for him to add the additional 20,000 troops to Afghanistan. So let me response to your points - and Phranck asked the same question so I'll response to both of you.



Issue #1 - Obama is a Muslim. No I don't believe that but he was raised as a Muslim. I don't believe he practices that faith today.

Issue #2 - Obama is not a US citizen. I'm in the middle on this one - not sure at this point if it's true either way. Watch this clip and tell me what you think -->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8&feature=player_embedded



Issue #3 - Obama is not the US President cause he didn't take the oath of office properly or on a bible. I don't believe that as well. Even though Roberts bungled it and the redo had no bible, it still counts. There are 4 Presidents I'm aware of that had to retake the oath for similar reasons (i.e. Coolidge comes to mind). And the first Roosevelt did not use the bible either.



So I don't believe in 2 of the 3 conspiracies here and the jury is still out on #2.

 

[bubbleheadchief]

That's a very difficult and good question. I can only give you one example that jump out at me immediately. Everything to do with 9/11 EVERYTHING. Let us discern what actually happened.



There are certainly things the average citizen needs to know. Military tech research, i.e. the old skunkworks yeah we dont need to know about it but.



Here I think this might be an answer. Everything except information that can lead to direct harm physical harm to American Citizens and military tech research.

Okay, here is the second part of the question...you knew it was coming, admit it.....WHO makes the determination that something should be released to the public, that if it gets released that it wont cause harm????



I am not a conpiracy theorist in any way shape or form, I also do not, regardless of what one certain individual here thinks, have blind faith in our military leaders. I want to know what "really" happened on 9/11 or how much we knew ahead of time. But I honestly think opening up every piece of evidence good and bad is the wrong thing to do. Not to protect a cover-up or to blow a cover-up wide open, simply put how the information came into the system, whether humint, satty imagery, intercepted phone cons...however the information was collected does not need to be put out into the open. That can put both American and persons of other nationalities in jeapordy. The funny part of how stuff gets classified is, it's pretty much subjective. Although a system used to gather it may be classified, an individual actually marks the classisification on to it. And because the human animal is stupid, simply because a classified system was used, all of a sudden the meal that Hussein ordered from Achmed's Fallafel Stand becomes Top Secret code word. No shit I have seen things that have no business being marked a certain classification get marked that, while other things dont.



i am sure most of the other guys here, ex-military or active will agree.....there are some really Special person ways of classifying things, and to be honest, every branch is different.

 

[phranchk]

How about some conspiracies that were proven true that did put American lives into harms way for the excuse that it was for the greater good?

-Tuskegee Experiment

-MK Ultra

-Operation Midnight Climax

-Cointelpro

-Gulf of Tonken incident

-Attack on the USS Liberty

 

[R K]

How about some conspiracies that were proven ture that did put American lives into harms way for the excuse that it was for the greater good?

-Tuskegee Experiment

-MK Ultra

-Operation Midnight Climax

-Cointelpro

-Gulf of Tonken incident

-Attack on the USS Liberty

We didn't land on the Moon.



I'm done discussing anything with Fluff. I just get way to pissed off and want to type keys I should not.