Williams Promoted: Hahn Promoted As Well To GM

[nickofypres]

All your saying to me is, "Hey, I know, the Sox under performed for a whole decade under two bad managers despite being the best team on paper in their own division. Has to be Kennys fault!"

 

[Gunzaan]

All you are saying to me is I blindly support a GM and blame the managers on the owner and injuries on misfortune. In reality, the managers and injuries (aka a pathetic farm system) are on the GM.

12 years of having an owner who is willing to spend a ton of cash and only 2 playoffs. Pretty damn pathetic.

 

[nickofypres]

All you are saying to me is I blindly support a GM and blame the managers on the owner and injuries on misfortune. In reality, the managers and injuries (aka a pathetic farm system) are on the GM.

I don't blindly follow the GM. I've criticized KW when warranted. Now isn't warranted. Ozzie and Manuel ran those teams into the ground. I live 2 states over, 5 hours and 250 miles away and I could, and can still, see that.

Sounds like you blindly worship(ed) Ozzie.

12 years of having an owner who is willing to spend a ton of cash and only 2 playoffs. Pretty damn pathetic.

It is pretty damn pathetic. Talent was there, good managing wasn't. That's the point. That will always be the point.

 

[Gunzaan]

And btw, you give baseball managers waaaaay too much credit for their influence. Out of the 4 major sports, they by far have the least impact on their team. Baseball has very little game planning or strategy (except for starting pitchers vs batters) compared to other sports... And thats the pitching coach anyway.

I also don't fully understand your point about the farm system & money spent into it. I know players are signed, but don't you think draft picks should be higholy successful? That is hardly the case with KW. Sure, he has had a few, like Sale this year, but there have been far more disappointing draft classes under KW then successful ones.

 

[Gunzaan]

I don't blindly follow the GM. I've criticized KW when warranted. Now isn't warranted. Ozzie and Manuel ran those teams into the ground. I live 2 states over, 5 hours and 250 miles away and I could, and can still, see that.

Sounds like you blindly worship(ed) Ozzie.



It is pretty damn pathetic. Talent was there, good managing wasn't. That's the point. That will always be the point.

Ozzie isn't a good manger, that is obvious. Nice try. And btw, KW is his boss... Should have fired him years ago.

And as I said, baseball managers don't have as much of an impact as nearly every other sport. The team is what it is... Assembled by the GM. But of course, I'm sure that evik Ozzie had something to do, as an example, with Peavy being injured all the time, or Rios and Dunn absolutely sucking balls last year. Ozzie makes a great scapegoat because he WAS such a turd. It's easy to blame him, but that is short-sighted, IMO

 

[nickofypres]

And btw, you give baseball managers waaaaay too much credit for their influence. Out of the 4 major sports, they by far have the least impact on their team. Baseball has very little game planning or strategy (except for starting pitchers vs batters) compared to other sports... And thats the pitching coach anyway.

Given that Jerry, Ozzie, and Robin (so far) seems to be terrible in game managers, shitty with bullpens, idiotic with line ups, I'd say their influence has more impact than you think.

EDIT: Not to mention Ozzie had his 'doghouse" probably didn't do a whole lot of good for morale/chemistry. Ozzie ran out Nick Swisher (who the **** needs a .350+ OBP, 20+ HR switch hitter anyway?)

I also don't fully understand your point about the farm system & money spent into it. I know players are signed, but don't you think draft picks should be higholy successful? That is hardly the case with KW. Sure, he has had a few, like Sale this year, but there have been far more disappointing draft classes under KW then successful ones.

They've said they can't spend a lot on the farm. No over slotting, etc. Not a lot to work with. Williams the farm has been meek, and deserves blame, but not a lot they can do there given the finances. But the Sox do rush a lot of prospects to the major league level: Sale, Beckham, Jones, Danks (after he was traded for), Hudson, Richard, Broadway, etc.

 

[nickofypres]

Ozzie should have been fired years ago. I have no idea why he wasn't. I'm guessing JR didn't want to pay for two managers. (paying Ozzie plus the replacement)

 

[Gunzaan]

Given that Jerry, Ozzie, and Robin (so far) seems to be terrible in game managers, shitty with bullpens, idiotic with line ups, I'd say their influence has more impact than you think.



They've said they can't spend a lot on the farm. No over slotting, etc. Not a lot to work with. Williams the farm has been meek, and deserves blame, but not a lot they can do there given the finances. But the Sox do rush a lot of prospects to the major league level: Sale, Beckham, Jones, Danks (after he was traded for), Hudson, Richard, Broadway, etc.

Nonetheless, in baseball, a manager puts people on the field & they determine the outcome, as opposed to other sports that make set plays, tactics & strategies. Baseball managers effect the outcome of games the least out of the 4 major sports... That is obvious. And you just said that the last 3 Sox managers have basically stunk, so where does the responsibility lie? Their boss. KW.

Then, you talk about the limitations of the farm system yet fail to address the bad decisions in the draft.... Very curious...

 

[Gunzaan]

Ozzie should have been fired years ago. I have no idea why he wasn't. I'm guessing JR didn't want to pay for two managers. (paying Ozzie plus the replacement)

You said I blindly worship Ozzie (when I've detailed his weaknesses & have said he isn't a good manager) but you sound like KW's son, defending his dad. He can do no wrong in your eyes. This is a really bad discussion because you aren't coming up with any valid points.... I'll check the board tomorrow to see if thats changed, but it feels like I'm talking to Dews... Just blind hatred for Ozzie and no culpability for thr man in charge.

I do enjoy the debate though especially with fellow Sox fans! Talk to you tomorrow

 

[nickofypres]

I don't know if you're trolling, or just can't read and/ or comprehend.

Again. How does Manuel being awful Kenny's fault. He didn't fucking hire him. SCHUELER FUCKING HIRED MANUEL. REINSDORF WANTED OZZIE. Ventura is on KW. And Ventura looks to be another Ozzie, but I'm giving Ventura the benefit because he's a rookie. I don't understand the problem here.

MLB managers set the plays, tactics, and strategies. Players just don't go up and there and bunt when they feel like. They don't run/steal when they feel like it. They don't change pitchers when the pitcher decides he's had enough.

I said KW deserves blame for the farm, but there isn't a lot of focus on it because they rather spend their $ on the major league roster. We absolutely should have more prospects, but again, most of the good ones are rushed to the majors anyway. Pretty sure I spelled it all out there...


What are you not getting?

 

[nickofypres]

You said I blindly worship Ozzie (when I've detailed his weaknesses & have said he isn't a good manager) but you sound like KW's son, defending his dad. He can do no wrong in your eyes. This is a really bad discussion because you aren't coming up with any valid points.... I'll check the board tomorrow to see if thats changed, but it feels like I'm talking to Dews... Just blind hatred for Ozzie and no culpability for thr man in charge.

I do enjoy the debate though especially with fellow Sox fans! Talk to you tomorrow

I brought up points, you just can't read.

KW has his faults, but you make it sound like everything is his fault just because he's the GM. That isn't critical thinking. I come off as a KW ball sniffer, but that's just because I try to point out that not everything is KWs fault.

Ozzie is a -10WAR manager, IMO. I think had we had any other manager last season, the Sox win 100 games (well, maybe not with Dunn's injury), point remains. TALENT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, GOOD MANAGING HAS NOT.

Look at this team, if Ozzie was at the helm, do you really think they'd have 81 wins? I don't. Id bet they're at 81 losses by now.

 

[Gunzaan]

You were the one that blamed injuries on only 2 playoffs appearances. That is on KW.

Manuel was only under KW for 3 years... The rest is on him. Ozzie is his fault. Blame the owner all you want but if you do, that just makes KW a puppet to the owner...nice GMing if thats the case.

I'm trolling because I'm not satisfied with 2 playoffs in 12 years? Hahaha... Okay. You must be on the Sox payroll if thats the case....

 

[nickofypres]

You were the one that blamed injuries on only 2 playoffs appearances. That is on KW.

No....I blamed it mostly on Manuel, and Ozzie. I don't think you can read. Injuries hurt them in 2004 (No Frank or Magglio? Come on now) and in 2007, that is part of the blame, but not all of it. Most of it goes to poor managing.

YManuel was only under KW for 3 years... The rest is on him. Ozzie is his fault. Blame the owner all you want but if you do, that just makes KW a puppet to the owner...nice GMing if thats the case.

Kenny wanted Gaston. Just because JR has been hands on here-and-there doesn't make him a puppet. Illitch in Detroit was hands on bringing in Fielder, and Miguel Cabrera. Is Dave Dombrowski a puppet too?

YI'm trolling because I'm not satisfied with 2 playoffs in 12 years? Hahaha... Okay. You must be on the Sox payroll if thats the case....

I accused you of being a troll because you're not reading what I'm saying, and you're acting like JoeHawks.

 

[Gunzaan]

I brought up points, you just can't read.

KW has his faults, but you make it sound like everything is his fault just because he's the GM. That isn't critical thinking. I come off as a KW ball sniffer, but that's just because I try to point out that not everything is KWs fault.

Ozzie is a -10WAR manager, IMO. I think had we had any other manager last season, the Sox win 100 games (well, maybe not with Dunn's injury), point remains. TALENT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, GOOD MANAGING HAS NOT.

Look at this team, if Ozzie was at the helm, do you really think they'd have 81 wins? I don't. Id bet they're at 81 losses by now.

Once again, I can read, I just completely disagree with you. Baseball managers aren't that important. GMs are much more important in baseball. Hell, pitching & hitting coaches are more important to a team then the actual manager.

There isn't THAT much strategy to baseball... You know the batters and align yourself as such. It's up to the players to perform, more then any other sport. The people on the field determine the outcome, whether they perform or under perform. As I said earlier, KW is EXTREMELY lucky he is employed by the most loyal and hard headed owner in all of sports. 12 years, 2 playoffs.

 

[nickofypres]

But go ahead, blame KW for everything. Everything is KWs fault.

Cell had blue and green seats in 2005 and 2006. FUCKING KENNY WILLIAMS CANT EVEN DO THE SEATING RIGHT!

In short: Like I've said 100 times, like I said last time we had this discussion, KW is to blame for some things. But he isn't too blame on EVERYTHING. You like to blame EVERYTHING on him. I blame it on shitty managers he didn't want.

 

[Gunzaan]

No....I blamed it mostly on Manuel, and Ozzie. I don't think you can read. Injuries hurt them in 2004 (No Frank or Magglio? Come on now) and in 2007, that is part of the blame, but not all of it. Most of it goes to poor managing.



Kenny wanted Gaston. Just because JR has been hands on here-and-there doesn't make him a puppet. Illitch in Detroit was hands on bringing in Fielder, and Miguel Cabrera. Is Dave Dombrowski a puppet too?



I accused you of being a troll because you're not reading what I'm saying, and you're acting like JoeHawks.

No, I don't agree with you, so I'm joecawks, lol. Sorry, but I see baseball for what it is.. players either produce or they don't... Baseball managers have very little to do with wins and losses, hell look at Giradi in NY. He is widely knwon as one of the worst, yet they do well because of cashman. GMs are much more important in baseball then in any other sport, to go along with managers being the least important then in any other sport. 12 seasons. 2 playoffs.

 

[nickofypres]

Once again, I can read, I just completely disagree with you. Baseball managers aren't that important. GMs are much more important in baseball. Hell, pitching & hitting coaches are more important to a team then the actual manager.

There isn't THAT much strategy to baseball... You know the batters and align yourself as such. It's up to the players to perform, more then any other sport. The people on the field determine the outcome, whether they perform or under perform. As I said earlier, KW is EXTREMELY lucky he is employed by the most loyal and hard headed owner in all of sports. 12 years, 2 playoffs.

And its absolutly important for players to produce, and you know who's job it is to motivate them? THE MANAGER! Too bad we've been stuck with shitty managers KW didn't want until this year. KENNYS FAULT!!!1

 

[nickofypres]

No, I don't agree with you, so I'm joecawks, lol. Sorry, but I see baseball for what it is.. players either produce or they don't... Baseball managers have very little to do with wins and losses, hell look at Giradi in NY. He is widely knwon as one of the worst, yet they do well because of cashman. GMs are much more important in baseball then in any other sport, to go along with managers being the least important then in any other sport. 12 seasons. 2 playoffs.

Citing Cashman is just poor, anyone could be a great GM if your task is to sign all the great players with unlimited pockets and trade for everyone knowing your prospects are over hyped.

IF you can't see how you're being joehawks, I think you're past the point of no return.

 

[Gunzaan]

But go ahead, blame KW for everything. Everything is KWs fault.

Cell had blue and green seats in 2005 and 2006. FUCKING KENNY WILLIAMS CANT EVEN DO THE SEATING RIGHT!

In short: Like I've said 100 times, like I said last time we had this discussion, KW is to blame for some things. But he isn't too blame on EVERYTHING. You like to blame EVERYTHING on him. I blame it on shitty managers he didn't want.

See, thats how I know I'm right. You spazz out and will blame anyone BUT KW. Me, I'll put partial blame on the manager, partial blame on the player, and partial blame on KW... Each and every year we fail... Which is 10 out of 12 years. But who is the top dog in that equation? The GM. There have been hundreds of GMs who have been fired for less, yet 'KW gets promoted. As I said, he is lucky to have toe most loyal owner in all of sports.

 

[nickofypres]

See, thats how I know I'm right. You spazz out and will blame anyone BUT KW. Me, I'll put partial blame on the manager, partial blame on the player, and partial blame on KW... Each and every year we fail... Which is 10 out of 12 years. But who is the top dog in that equation? The GM. There have been hundreds of GMs who have been fired for less, yet 'KW gets promoted. As I said, he is lucky to have toe most loyal owner in all of sports.

Again, you're not reading, I have said KW is to blame, just not everything. I don't see how that is blaming everyone but KW.

I disagree with you on the managers input. Stupid managing cost us wins. Ozzie and Manuel cost us wins. Ozzie and Manuel weren't KW's guys. 2001-2011 not Kenny's fault. Ozzie won us 2005, and 2008. I don't give KW credit for those. I give Ozzie credit for those. I've always gave Oz credit for 05. Look around in the archives, its there.

And no Gunz, I have yet to see you blame anyone but KW. Oh, sure, you said Ozzie was a bad manager. But you blame KW for bad managers he didn't want running the team into the ground.