Around the NBA (Non-Bulls) Thread - 2023-2024 Season

[clonetrooper264]

well, that settles it then! Adam Silver is complaining about nothing! Those that watched the atrocious all star game is up 20% from last year

Well, it does also mention that last year's viewership was a record low, so this year is 20% above the lowest number ever.

So it seems more people watched this year, but everyone (anecdotally) is complaining about the product they watched, so perhaps next year there's gonna be another drop...maybe a new record low?

 

[knoxville7]

Well, it does also mention that last year's viewership was a record low, so this year is 20% above the lowest number ever.

So it seems more people watched this year, but everyone (anecdotally) is complaining about the product they watched, so perhaps next year there's gonna be another drop...maybe a new record low?

exactly...money is their only motivator and even that isnt enough sometimes. the NBA has become a joke of a league IMO

i imagine ratings are on the decline...i have not looked it up to verify this, but that would be my hunch

hence, my responses

 

[clonetrooper264]

hence, my responses

You are seemingly right when it comes to All Star ratings (not sure if that was what you were referring to, or just NBA in general).

NBA viewership in general seems to be up since 2019 with there being a general nuance of numbers prior to around 2017 or 2018 being much higher, but this may be due to people moving away from regular TV and into streaming (legal or otherwise). Now, if there is no such nuance to those numbers whatsoever, then you are right and people stopped caring about the NBA post 2017 (though still trending upwards from that dip).

 

[knoxville7]

MSN

www.msn.com

for the bobby portis lovers out there that think we "let one get away"

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

@clonetrooper264 @Scoot26 @knoxville7 @RacerX @BNB @Enasic

I’m working on a theory. Not groundbreaking or anything. In fact, I’m pretty sure that I’m stealing it. I’m calling it the James Harden Theory:

Volume scorers who have poor defensive metrics go ringless.

Melo, Jamal Crawford, Harden, Booker. All have played on top teams. All of them faulter. Booker was close, but Giannis took care of it.

My theory states that if the Suns had traded Devin Booker they would have received enough to get them a title this year.

EDIT: thoughts?

 

[BNB]

@clonetrooper264 @Scoot26 @knoxville7 @RacerX @BNB @Enasic

I’m working on a theory. Not groundbreaking or anything. In fact, I’m pretty sure that I’m stealing it. I’m calling it the James Harden Theory:

Volume scorers who have poor defensive metrics go ringless.

Melo, Jamal Crawford, Harden, Booker. All have played on top teams. All of them faulter. Booker was close, but Giannis took care of it.

My theory states that if the Suns had traded Devin Booker they would have received enough to get them a title this year.

I've felt this way for a long time. I've always referred to their offense as "empty stats." Look nice on paper, but they don't translate to wins, especially when it matters.

Those types of players not only need legit stars in order to win, but they can't be the 1st option. I look at Kevin Love, who put up video game numbers with the Wolves, but couldn't win shit. Not until he got traded to the Cavs with LBJ and Kyrie, that is. And KAT... couldn't win shit, but now they're a more serious team because of ANT.

I agree that the smart thing to do would be to sell when you can get the biggest return and really give your team a chance to win. The Nuggets started their dominance by the pieces and picks stemming from the Melo trade.

This is also why I've felt so strongly about the Bulls trading Lavine. The perfect time was about 2 years ago when he was still on a cheap deal, before getting paid and injured again.

 

[Scoot26]

@clonetrooper264 @Scoot26 @knoxville7 @RacerX @BNB @Enasic

I’m working on a theory. Not groundbreaking or anything. In fact, I’m pretty sure that I’m stealing it. I’m calling it the James Harden Theory:

Volume scorers who have poor defensive metrics go ringless.

Melo, Jamal Crawford, Harden, Booker. All have played on top teams. All of them faulter. Booker was close, but Giannis took care of it.

My theory states that if the Suns had traded Devin Booker they would have received enough to get them a title this year.

Depends how you're defining volume scorer with poor defensive metrics.

Allen Iverson was definitely a volume scorer on par with some of the the players you listed, but knew how to steal the ball... also ringless.

I've read Elgin Baylor was a volume scorer, and ironically the Lakers finally won the championship the year he retired.

 

[Scoot26]

I've felt this way for a long time. I've always referred to their offense as "empty stats." Look nice on paper, but they don't translate to wins, especially when it matters.

Those types of players not only need legit stars in order to win, but they can't be the 1st option. I look at Kevin Love, who put up video game numbers with the Wolves, but couldn't win shit. Not until he got traded to the Cavs with LBJ and Kyrie, that is. And KAT... couldn't win shit, but now they're a more serious team because of ANT.

I agree that the smart thing to do would be to sell when you can get the biggest return and really give your team a chance to win. The Nuggets started their dominance by the pieces and picks stemming from the Melo trade.

This is also why I've felt so strongly about the Bulls trading Lavine. The perfect time was about 2 years ago when he was still on a cheap deal, before getting paid and injured again.

Oscar Robertson probably falls into this category too.. Didn't win shit until he was teamed up with Kareem.

 

[knoxville7]

@clonetrooper264 @Scoot26 @knoxville7 @RacerX @BNB @Enasic

I’m working on a theory. Not groundbreaking or anything. In fact, I’m pretty sure that I’m stealing it. I’m calling it the James Harden Theory:

Volume scorers who have poor defensive metrics go ringless.

Melo, Jamal Crawford, Harden, Booker. All have played on top teams. All of them faulter. Booker was close, but Giannis took care of it.

My theory states that if the Suns had traded Devin Booker they would have received enough to get them a title this year.

EDIT: thoughts?

i think its mostly true. theres exceptions to everything, but if you cant stop your man from scoring, youre going to have to score ALOT to compensate for that. great coaches can try and put that player on the other teams worst offensive player, but then youre just making the worst offensive player a lil bit better...and in a close game, a few points matter

and of course alot depends on whomst you get back in the trade and hitting on any draft picks that player brings you.

 

[RacerX]

@clonetrooper264 @Scoot26 @knoxville7 @RacerX @BNB @Enasic

I’m working on a theory. Not groundbreaking or anything. In fact, I’m pretty sure that I’m stealing it. I’m calling it the James Harden Theory:

Volume scorers who have poor defensive metrics go ringless.

Melo, Jamal Crawford, Harden, Booker. All have played on top teams. All of them faulter. Booker was close, but Giannis took care of it.

My theory states that if the Suns had traded Devin Booker they would have received enough to get them a title this year.

EDIT: thoughts?

IDK enough about the Suns roster evolution and challenges, but I do know that when ZL first became a free agent in 2017 (?) and only two r3tarded teams (Bulls, Kings) were interested in signing him to $20MM/year I went on record stating that aside from his knee problems, don't go anywhere near ZL cause he was a volume scorer that didn't play D and didn't make his teammates better and as a result he was precisely the type of player that would likely never sniff a title.

 

[clonetrooper264]

@clonetrooper264 @Scoot26 @knoxville7 @RacerX @BNB @Enasic

I’m working on a theory. Not groundbreaking or anything. In fact, I’m pretty sure that I’m stealing it. I’m calling it the James Harden Theory:

Volume scorers who have poor defensive metrics go ringless.

Melo, Jamal Crawford, Harden, Booker. All have played on top teams. All of them faulter. Booker was close, but Giannis took care of it.

My theory states that if the Suns had traded Devin Booker they would have received enough to get them a title this year.

EDIT: thoughts?

This is probably very true, though I also wonder about the team construction around such a player. And which defensive metrics are you looking at? In my experience, defensive metrics aren't always the most accurate at face value, often needs to be put in context with lineup and team metrics to get a true picture.

But all that said, I'm sure that your theory is most likely overwhelmingly true. Certainly for the players listed it was.

 

[Gustavus Adolphus]

IDK enough about the Suns roster evolution and challenges, but I do know that when ZL first became a free agent in 2017 (?) and only two r3tarded teams (Bulls, Kings) were interested in signing him to $20MM/year I went on record stating that aside from his knee problems, don't go anywhere near ZL cause he was a volume scorer that didn't play D and didn't make his teammates better and as a result he was precisely the type of player that would likely never sniff a title.

Sounds like I may have stolen this theory from you.

 

[clonetrooper264]

@Gustavus Adolphus how does Steph Curry rate in terms of defensive metrics to you?

Also how are you defining "volume scorer"? Typically I'd associate that with a high PPG, but bad shooting percentages and/or low TS%. Think Allen Iverson. However, Harden doesn't quite fit that mold because although his shooting percentages aren't great, his 3pt and free throw rate ups his TS% over 60% almost every year. Similarly Zach's percentages are both acceptable at face value and also fairly efficient.

So the question is basically, is this just a person who scores a lot while also not playing good defense (by whatever metric you're measuring for this)?

 

[Crystallas]

Watch the 88 WCSF Mavs and Nuggets. Good series.

English might be the closest thing.

 

[Scoot26]

Watch the 88 WCSF Mavs and Nuggets. Good series.

English might be the closest thing.

Thinking more on it, English is a really good example, but Pete Maravich may be the ultimate player of this.

 

[Crystallas]

That's a tricky one.

Pistol Pete could lock-down about 85% of his match-ups. He just couldn't ignore his heart failure and play two-ways 48 minutes/82 games. Volume scorer, yes, but not the kind of example that proves or disproves the theory.
The Hawks had this guy sweet Lou Hudson that nobody talks about, because Pete and Lou kind of log-jammed the swingman spot, making it easy for any team with decent size to create matchup issues as well as acting as an exception to macrostats like VORP.
For the first few seasons of Michael, Pete and Lou were used as one* example to why the Blazers didn't draft Jordan.

 

[Crystallas]

World B Free is another one that was a volume scorer(at least for a few seasons as his role). He was a short guy that put up a lot of prayers by design, they were a crash board team. At least the old Clippers were with Sven Nater. One of those guys who had a high percentage of success controlling the restricted area.
Free was a revolving door, not as bad as TMac was in certain seasons, but pretty close.

 

[SilenceS]

Bronny declares for the draft. LOL

 

[Scoot26]

World B Free is another one that was a volume scorer(at least for a few seasons as his role). He was a short guy that put up a lot of prayers by design, they were a crash board team. At least the old Clippers were with Sven Nater. One of those guys who had a high percentage of success controlling the restricted area.
Free was a revolving door, not as bad as TMac was in certain seasons, but pretty close.

Heh, Clone and I were having a side chat the other day mentioned t he Clippers traded a 1984 future 1st to the Sixers for World B Free in 1978. 6 years later, the Clippers were still not good and the pick ended up being #5, Charles Barkley.

Clippers traded Free in 1980 to the Warriors for their 1984 1st. It ended up #8, who the Clippers selected Lancaster Gordon, who as you can guess, was not good.

 

[clonetrooper264]

World B Free is another one that was a volume scorer(at least for a few seasons as his role). He was a short guy that put up a lot of prayers by design, they were a crash board team. At least the old Clippers were with Sven Nater. One of those guys who had a high percentage of success controlling the restricted area.
Free was a revolving door, not as bad as TMac was in certain seasons, but pretty close.

TMac is a funny case as I imagine most people remember him only for his scoring, but he actually had a few years with all defensive team votes (though obviously never made one). Probably more of a two way player than most would give him credit for, but definitely fell off and/or stopped trying as hard after a certain point. That said, he never won anything either

His cousin Vince Carter falls into the same boat, also had a few years where he got a couple all defensive team votes (again obviously not enough to actually be near the actual team)