At what point does Rose overtake Pippen?

[houheffna]

Belive me I already know brother, but strangly I kind of like the guys confidence...Trolls make this site interesting...LoL
:yeah:

you calling someone a troll? Lol...

 

[houheffna]

Great post. The shaq/kobe team is a perfect example. What those two did to that team should make guys like rami, heff etc appreciate pippen all the more. That feud costs the laker at leats 2 more championships AT LEAST.

What if pippen decided to pull a kobe and sabotage the team after a few championships? So that he can persue his own personal glory. Based on 94 and 95, its obvious that he was more than capable of keeping a team in contention with decent (94) to bad (95) talent. The bulls don't win 3 more championships. But people just don't see the sacrifice he made. And even penalize him for it.

So because Pippen got along with Jordan and was a great player, he was as important to those titles as Jordan? What???? Kobe/Shaq was an ego problem, that has nothing to do with who was the more important player to those Bulls titles. Saying Pippen was as important as Jordan is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[clonetrooper264]

you calling someone a troll? Lol...

Sweet irony :clap:

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

97, get it straight. It has nothing to do with not appreciating what Scottie Pippen did. It's just the simple belief that Jordan was far more influential in those 6 Bulls title runs. That is all. My appreciation for the player Pipp was is undying.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Back on topic to this thread... Pippen is still number two. But the reason at least 13 people out of 16 people believe that Rose has a chance to be number two when all is said and done is because his offensive ability has already peaked Pippen's. His talent is in the O-department isn't close to matched by Pippen's.

The gap of Rose and Pippen's offense is surely not as big as their defensive gap (Pippen being far, far superior). But I anticipate Rose becoming one of the better defensive players in the league very soon. That gap will start to close.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

being as important to a title has a different meaning to me.

Like shaq and kobe... when they won those 3 titles together, Shaq was obviously to more dominant player and the better player. That's why he won all 3 finals MVP's.

But without Kobe, the Lakers probably wouldn't have won those titles... which is why he was very important to those titles

Same with the Bulls. MJ was clearly the better player and the biggest reason why we won those titles, but without Pippen, we wouldn't be bragging about 6 titles in the 90's... MJ says it himself all the time. Scottie was the perfect sidekick for MJ... he didn't care that he wasn't in the spotlight like MJ was. He just did his part to help the Bulls win games.

I do know what you are saying. But here is my point. Firsttimer got mad at me a long time ago because I said that the 1999-00 Lakers team (that went 15-1 in the playoffs) could have won the title still with Eddie Jones in Kobe's place.

Shaq was definitely the best and far more valuable player to that team back then. If you had to choose any player to replace on that team, the LAST one you would was Shaq. That was my point about the Jordan-Pippen Bulls. All of those titles would have been MUCH harder to come by with anyone but Scottie as MJ's #2. But you still could win titles with someone else as Jordan's #2. At least, you are far more likely to still win titles with Pippen replaced as opposed to Jordan.

It is what it is though. Pippen was Jordan's #2 and Bryant was Shaq's #2. And both did a great job and the result was plural championships.

 

[97Bulls]

Back on topic to this thread... Pippen is still number two. But the reason at least 13 people out of 16 people believe that Rose has a chance to be number two when all is said and done is because his offensive ability has already peaked Pippen's. His talent is in the O-department isn't close to matched by Pippen's.

The gap of Rose and Pippen's offense is surely not as big as their defensive gap (Pippen being far, far superior). But I anticipate Rose becoming one of the better defensive players in the league very soon. That gap will start to close.

My god rami.... how can you say roses offense is better than pippens? Rose attacks the basket, that's all he does at a high level.his jumpshot has improved, but I don't think it better than pippens. That just something were gonna have to disagree on. Rose has no post game yet. And it funny... you'll put into context steve kerr 3pt fg% by alluding to the rule change that moved the line in a foot. But don't acknowledge the rule change that drastically helps roses abilities to penetrate. Why is that?

 

[houheffna]

I do know what you are saying. But here is my point. Firsttimer got mad at me a long time ago because I said that the 1999-00 Lakers team (that went 15-1 in the playoffs) could have won the title still with Eddie Jones in Kobe's place.

Shaq was definitely the best and far more valuable player to that team back then. If you had to choose any player to replace on that team, the LAST one you would was Shaq. That was my point about the Jordan-Pippen Bulls. All of those titles would have been MUCH harder to come by with anyone but Scottie as MJ's #2. But you still could win titles with someone else as Jordan's #2. At least, you are far more likely to still win titles with Pippen replaced as opposed to Jordan.

It is what it is though. Pippen was Jordan's #2 and Bryant was Shaq's #2. And both did a great job and the result was plural championships.

FirstTimer should have gotten made at you for saying that shit...lol. Kobe is higher up on the all time list than Pip is, many people have Kobe top 10 all time...Kobe's game might have been inhibited by Shaq's presence, but the closer on those teams was Kobe, Kobe had the ball in his hands at the end of games. Pip had no such roles with Jordan

 

[scottiepippen1994]

Back on topic to this thread... Pippen is still number two. But the reason at least 13 people out of 16 people believe that Rose has a chance to be number two when all is said and done is because his offensive ability has already peaked Pippen's. His talent is in the O-department isn't close to matched by Pippen's.

The gap of Rose and Pippen's offense is surely not as big as their defensive gap (Pippen being far, far superior). But I anticipate Rose becoming one of the better defensive players in the league very soon. That gap will start to close.

I saw a lot of improvement by rose on the defensive end of the court last season..Rose is a hard worker and dedicated to the game....He rrealistically has a chance to become the 2nd alltime Bull..But that's years away....Let's see how many rings he has when its all said and done....All Rose needs is a Pippen of his own to achieve the ultimate goal..Every champion needs a pippen or tonto...

 

[houheffna]

My god rami.... how can you say roses offense is better than pippens? Rose attacks the basket, that's all he does at a high level.his jumpshot has improved, but I don't think it better than pippens. That just something were gonna have to disagree on. Rose has no post game yet. And it funny... you'll put into context steve kerr 3pt fg% by alluding to the rule change that moved the line in a foot. But don't acknowledge the rule change that drastically helps roses abilities to penetrate. Why is that?

If Kevin Johnson was able to penetrate to the basket at will....Rose most definitely would be able to. Rose is a better scorer than Pippen was and Rose is a better shooter when taking into context 3pt, FT (which Pippen was horrible at) and everything else that goes into scoring the ball. I don't think there is much doubt who the better offensive player is.

 

[BNB]

to be fair to Scottie...

if he took as many shots as Rose does, his scoring numbers would look much better.

2 seasons ago, Rose took 17.6 shots per game and averaged 20 PPG. The most Shots Scottie ever attemted per game was 17.8 and he averaged 22 PPG that year.

So if scottie took 20 shots per game like Rose did last season, he could have averaged around 25 PPG.

 

[BNB]

FirstTimer should have gotten made at you for saying that shit...lol. Kobe is higher up on the all time list than Pip is, many people have Kobe top 10 all time...Kobe's game might have been inhibited by Shaq's presence, but the closer on those teams was Kobe, Kobe had the ball in his hands at the end of games. Pip had no such roles with Jordan

he pointed out only the 1999-2000 finals...

Kobe averaged under 16 PPG in that series against the Pacers.

Shit.. the lakers won one of those games and Kobe only had 2 points [played 9 minutes.]

I'm sure if the Lakers had another quality guard for THAT title, they still could have won.

 

[clonetrooper264]

to be fair to Scottie...

if he took as many shots as Rose does, his scoring numbers would look much better.

2 seasons ago, Rose took 17.6 shots per game and averaged 20 PPG. The most Shots Scottie ever attemted per game was 17.8 and he averaged 22 PPG that year.

So if scottie took 20 shots per game like Rose did last season, he could have averaged around 25 PPG.

Yeah Scottie could probably score 25 ppg if he had the same usage, but I still think Rose is the better offensive player. This is not a knock on Scottie, but a testament to Rose's greatness. Rose has a far higher FT% and probably gets there more than Scottie. That helps to offset the 4% difference in fg% or whatever it is. I mean...Rose shoots like 85% maybe but Pippen shot in the mid 60's that year I think. Rose probably has a slightly higher 3pt% as well on probably similar attempts so he has that too. And I believe Rose had higher assist numbers as well passing to a lineup that has Noah and Bogans/Brewer in it instead of say Longley and BJ Armstrong.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

My god rami.... how can you say roses offense is better than pippens? Rose attacks the basket, that's all he does at a high level.his jumpshot has improved, but I don't think it better than pippens. That just something were gonna have to disagree on. Rose has no post game yet. And it funny... you'll put into context steve kerr 3pt fg% by alluding to the rule change that moved the line in a foot. But don't acknowledge the rule change that drastically helps roses abilities to penetrate. Why is that?

The defensive rules have changed in multiple ways. Some in the defense's favor... some in the offense's favor. Rose would be able to play in any era at a high level and so would Pippen. That isn't even worth arguing.

The three-point line was 1.75 feet closer for three years of Kerr's career. There is not much argument that it helped his percentage drastically.

Whether or not you choose to believe it, Rose's jump-shot is definitely more consistent than Scottie's. Yes, Rose lacks Scottie's post-up game but his passing/handling/play-making and finishing skills are easily superior.

Rose in 2010-11 was way more dominant on the offensive end than Pippen ever was... there is no denying that. It wasn't just about no hand-checking. Rose is by far the most athletic point guard in the history of the NBA.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

rose's offense is not as good as Pippen's?

i dont understand this...Rose is unstoppable at getting to the hole, he can finish, he can also hit the outside shot at a decent clip

he's an acrobat inside the lane...

he can carry a team offensively partly because he is such a game changer at scoring like that

scottie never really could..

doesnt mean scottie is inefficient or not a well polished offensive player...BUT his offense is not as good as rose's imo

 

[houheffna]

he pointed out only the 1999-2000 finals...

Kobe averaged under 16 PPG in that series against the Pacers.

Shit.. the lakers won one of those games and Kobe only had 2 points [played 9 minutes.]

I'm sure if the Lakers had another quality guard for THAT title, they still could have won.

You can't look at the finals alone. Kobe Bryant came up huge in critical moments in that Portland series, and had some big games that year. Eddie Jones has never played on the level Bryant played at, even at 21 years old.

 

[houheffna]

rose's offense is not as good as Pippen's?

i dont understand this...Rose is unstoppable at getting to the hole, he can finish, he can also hit the outside shot at a decent clip

he's an acrobat inside the lane...

he can carry a team offensively partly because he is such a game changer at scoring like that

scottie never really could..

doesnt mean scottie is inefficient or not a well polished offensive player...BUT his offense is not as good as rose's imo

People who say that the only thing Rose does better is drive to the basket...I think they are off in their analysis. That is like saying all Kareem could do better than Scottie is shoot a skyhook. Its the inability to stop that move that makes Rose potent. Scottie has never been considered unstoppable offensively when it came to scoring. Doesn't mean he wasn't a good scorer.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You can't look at the finals alone. Kobe Bryant came up huge in critical moments in that Portland series, and had some big games that year. Eddie Jones has never played on the level Bryant played at, even at 21 years old.

Actually sorry. I meant the 2000-01 L.A. Lakers. Not the 1999-00 Lakers.

 

[97Bulls]

The defensive rules have changed in multiple ways. Some in the defense's favor... some in the offense's favor. Rose would be able to play in any era at a high level and so would Pippen. That isn't even worth arguing.

The three-point line was 1.75 feet closer for three years of Kerr's career. There is not much argument that it helped his percentage drastically.

Whether or not you choose to believe it, Rose's jump-shot is definitely more consistent than Scottie's. Yes, Rose lacks Scottie's post-up game but his passing/handling/play-making and finishing skills are easily superior.

Rose in 2010-11 was way more dominant on the offensive end than Pippen ever was... there is no denying that. It wasn't just about no hand-checking. Rose is by far the most athletic point guard in the history of the NBA.

See how you blow stuff out of proportion? I never said or implied rose couldn't play in the pre-handckeck era. I said it helps his ability to drive to the basket. Not saying he couldn't get there with the hand check. But the rules do help him. But definately not make him.

Rose avg 25 ppg on 45% shooting. With a usage% of 32. Pippen avg 22 on 49% with a usage of 27%. In their best seasons. Also pippen avg 6 assist passing to players that couldn't score like the players rose passed to. Rose avg 8 assists passing to two guys capable of scoring 20 ppg (boozer and deng) and another guy (noah) that avg 13 ppg. You don't think that pippen in roses position avgs 8-9 assists with more offensive firepower?

 

[scottiepippen1994]

to be fair to Scottie...

if he took as many shots as Rose does, his scoring numbers would look much better.

2 seasons ago, Rose took 17.6 shots per game and averaged 20 PPG. The most Shots Scottie ever attemted per game was 17.8 and he averaged 22 PPG that year.

So if scottie took 20 shots per game like Rose did last season, he could have averaged around 25 PPG.

I'm very glad you made that point because its been on my mind reading this thread..Pippen was the type of player who's main concern was helping his team win and not personal stats..Pippen was more focused in getting his teammates involved in scoring with possibly a more pointguards mentality...Pippen new as well as anyone that jordan was the number one scoring option...So why in the hell would pippen try and score more....Now if Rose had Jordan on his team do you guys actually think that he would score as much????HELL to the NO!!!!!..Has it occured to y'all that maybe Rose didn't have a choice but to score considering that he doesn't have that many dependable scoring options other than mainly jumpshooters which explians why he went to the basket so much...If Pippen in his prime was on this currant bulls roster, I belive Pip would be one of the top scorers in the league...Pip would be the NBAs Lebron James with a brain....Pippen rarely scored under 20 points in a game with or without Jordan up until he was over the hill...Unselfishness was why Pippens scoring average wasn't as high as Rose...Put Rose on the Jordan teams and I would bet his average is loweer than Pips....:clap::crazydance::crazydance: