DRose Getting The Shaft On Projected MVP Voting

[RamiTheBullsFan]

On this forum, it seems to be a really big deal if you SUGGEST THAT someone other than Rose wins it.

According to who? Glide?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You.

Don't.

Know.

That.


You can't in one thread argue the Heats lack of depth then decapitate the squad of the worlds best player and say they'd be as dominant.

You're awful.

I don't know that the Heat would still be title contenders without James?

C- Anthony, Pittman
PF- Bosh, Haslem
SF- Battier, Jones
SG- Wade, Miller
PG- Cole, Chalmers

Yeah. I'm pretty sure. And I also know that team would DESTROY the Bulls without Rose.

 

[FirstTimer]

I don't know that the Heat would still be title contenders without James?

Congrats.

You can somewhat read.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Congrats.

You can somewhat read.

I see you have risen the white flag.

 

[FirstTimer]

I see you have risen the white flag.

No.

I've just pointed out that you can infact read what I typed.

The Heat would not be "as dominant" if they lost Lebron.

You saying they would still be title contenders is a compelte unknown.

You saying the Heat without James would crush the Bulls without Rose is an unknown..but likely...but still doesn't prove The Heat would be "as dominant" or title contenders. Added to that you are still mentally handicapped and it's tje same ole same ole.

 

[FirstTimer]

it's ok Rami, it only took you over a year to see your idiocy on the Carmelo deal you'll eventually catch on to this too.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Now, you're just fishing.

The Clippers being greater than the Mavericks is a known,

yet (somehow), against your own logic, you believe that the James-less Heat being > the Deng-led Bulls is an unknown.

 

[FirstTimer]

The Clippers being greater than the Mavericks is a known

I never said that it was a known. I said I'd be "so sure" about them in response to your idea that they might not be.

Keep trying tard boy.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Stubborn was his name-o.

 

[FirstTimer]

Stubborn was his name-o.

Stubborn =/= to pointing out the fact that you can't read properly.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

It appears that with this site the criteria for MVP are you have be one of the Top 10 players in the league and play with no other superstars or really good players..which basically runs opposite of everything the MVP has been about for the last 30 some years for the most part.

lets see here moses malone,magic,olajuwon,shaq,steve nash,etc.

those guys all played with "superstars" when they won the mvp..and there's more to add too

imo, the MVP definitely involves player to team value, but it also has to do with performance..and as i mentioned on another thread if you are on a team like the heat your player to team value may not be as high because the team is good in principle(i'm alluding to lebron here)..but that doesnt mean that you cant win the mvp if you have a great season

team success has also been a big part of the MVP voting..i cant recall the last time an MVP has been on a team that was even a low seed in the playoffs

the mvp is sometimes the best player in the league, but to say thats the standard i think is wrong....if that was true kobe and shaq would have more...lebron would have three straight...nash would only have one..maybe 0

i think the thing is we're looking at the last 4 or 5 years and using that as a precedent(considering that nowitzki,lebron, nor rose played with "superstars" although they had good supportings casts...lebron's probably the worst of the 3)


the 21 wins hypothetical is honestly dumb because it would never happen and that person would not win the MVP

 

[FirstTimer]

lets see here moses malone

Malone won an MVP with Dr J...*two without.

olajuwon

WHUT?



I frankly have no clue as to why you quoted me for this response.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Both are players who prefer the ball being in their hands. Wade can play well off of the ball, but the ball is still in his hands most of the time. Arguably, the Heat would be better off if James was the one playing off of the ball and Wade was the one handling because Wade is a better post player and dribble penetrator.

i think FT is right, you're only showing similarity by saying they both play off the ball...which is true..they're both athletic...which is true...they both drive which is true

wade imo is more crafty with the ball and he is fantastic at posting up and scoring and getting to the basket..his shot has improved but its still mediocre at best

lebron is more about brute power coupled with speed when he gets to the basket...lebron has developed a shooting game..but unlike wade doesnt have a great post game..lebron is the better passer and rebounder...defense is close on..you could really go with either

All in all, they are very similar. They both like to have the ball in their hands. What happens is Spoelstra usually has them take turns isolating. Neither is a particular good three-point shooter but both can get off their shot basically any time at will. Both are solid passers (LeBron being more skilled but Wade better being able to get inside with his dribble to dish it off for easy hoops). Both are exceptional wing rebounders and weak-side defensive players.

there ya go...i agree mostly with this..i think lebron is more of a shooter than wade is

there are certainly some similarities but to me i see wade as:

a shorter,less efficient,injury prone jordan....frankly i hate the kobe references to jordan because

A. i dont like kobe
B. kobe isnt near jordan at all
C. kobe reflects how jordan played more towards the end of his career with the go to fadeaway..not when he was blowing by to the basket and dunking on people(kobe does that but compared to jordan....:smh
D.the better jordan comparison is actually wade...both were great perimeter defenders..both are athletic as hell..both get to the basket with ease...both finish....both are not great shooters...both can carry teams(specifically late in the game)..both are shooting guards...jordan was also a great rebounder and passer for his size like wade

to me, wade's 06 finals performance against the mavs was jordan esque and i really mean jordan esque

lebron is like a stronger,faster,better passing and much better scoring pippen..i think pippen's d is better though

both are athletic...SFs...good defenders...good point forwards...great rebounders...neither have really a go to move but they can drive and shoot it

If James was gone, Wade would pick up his scoring because his touches would go way up. Vice versa applies as well.

wade more so than lebron...i think lebron would look more to create for other teammates...it'd be like the cavs except lebron has bosh and an overall better supporting cast

hell, lebron this year so far is averaging like 30 PPG...he still gets his own..wade is really imo the player that gets most affected in terms of touches and scoring with lebron on the team...and rightfully so

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Malone won an MVP with Dr J...*two without.




WHUT?



I frankly have no clue as to why you quoted me for this response.

lol i shouldnt have..it was confusing you it seems...i'm arguing for your point not against

 

[FirstTimer]

lol i shouldnt have..it was confusing you it seems...i'm arguing for your point not against

You'll want to edit out Olajuwon post haste.

Also, two of Malone's three MVP's were in Houston with no other star. His 76er one though he had Dr J IIRC

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

You'll want to edit out Olajuwon post haste.

Also, two of Malone's three MVP's were in Houston with no other star. His 76er one though he had Dr J IIRC

i should have been more specific with malone...i meant his one with philly

ah..damn you're right...olajuwon didnt have any stars on that team

keep forgetting barkley and drexler came later

i would add jordan to that list in place of hakeem

 

[Lex L.]

The MVP is definitely not the "best" player in the league. If that were the case, Jordan would have been the MVP from his 3rd season in the league (he broke his foot in his second season) through 1998 whenever he was playing.

One of the problems in how people are approaching this is that they're looking at it as an exercise in drawing relationships based on purely what happens on the court. There's an element to this that people also need to consider: this is decided by sports writers. Sports writers like to create and go after what they feel are more interesting narratives. It's this reason that Barkley won it in 1993. Him going to Pheonix and leading the Suns to the finals was a big story. Jordan in Chicago that year was status quo. Status quo is less of a story than what happened when Barkley went to Phoenix. So the sports writers votes went where they felt the best story was. In the end, however, Jordan proved that he was unassailably the most valuable player in the league and to his team as he went to town in the finals against the Suns.

And then it was the same when Malone won it in 1997. It's as much about the story as it is what is true on the court. And so the writers vote in a way that either follows or manufactures a story. 11 years of Jordan's greatness becomes retread if you're a writer.

If/when the writers go about it as an analytical exercise though, they kind of start with the most winning teams and then work their way down to see who is most instrumental to the top handful of teams. This is self serving. They won't give it to a player on some mid level team usually because those teams are more likely to be bounced early in the playoffs--if they make it. So, the MVP becomes more of a news commodity if the MVP is playing deep into the playoffs. It's not purely this. Looking for a contrarian candidate that has a realistic possibility to make a deep run is also in play. They'll pick the contrarian candidate because it creates buzz and adds an added element of interest if/when the buzz winner faces the more legitimate candidate. When Jordan faced Barkley and Malone, the idea that someone other than Jordan raised the level of interest. You could possibly say that this has also been in play with Kobe.

 

[FirstTimer]

i should have been more specific with malone...i meant his one with philly

ah..damn you're right...olajuwon didnt have any stars on that team

keep forgetting barkley and drexler came later

i would add jordan to that list in place of hakeem

Yeah Drexler was the year after and barkley was the season or two after that.

 

[FirstTimer]

MVP's since 1980 with other star(s) or verygood players on the team:
1980 Kareem
1981 Dr J
1983 Moses
1984 Bird
1985 Bird
1986 Bird
1987 Magic
1989 Magic
1990 Magic
1991 MJ
1992 MJ
1995 Robinson
1996 Jordan
1997 Malone
1998 Jordan
1999 Malone
2000 Shaq
2002 Duncan*
2003 Duncan* Tough calls on these. First one Robinson was still there. Second one Manuand Parker were there as well as Robinson. Neither were at peaks though
2004 Garnett* Cassell and Spreewell?
2005 Nash
2006 Nash
2007 Dirk* Jason Terry plus Josh Howards beastmode season
2008 Kobe* Odd here. Had Odom and Bynum but only Gasol for >30 games.

Ironically the last three have been more "one man band" situations than the previous 28 seasons.

 

[FirstTimer]

One of the problems in how people are approaching this is that they're looking at it as an exercise in drawing relationships based on purely what happens on the court. There's an element to this that people also need to consider: this is decided by sports writers. Sports writers like to create and go after what they feel are more interesting narratives. It's this reason that Barkley won it in 1993. Him going to Pheonix and leading the Suns to the finals was a big story. Jordan in Chicago that year was status quo. Status quo is less of a story than what happened when Barkley went to Phoenix. So the sports writers votes went where they felt the best story was. In the end, however, Jordan proved that he was unassailably the most valuable player in the league and to his team as he went to town in the finals against the Suns.

Except that the Finals had nothing to do with it. The MVP is voted and awarded before the Finals even start.