Is Coaching an Issue?

[Bear Pride]

I assume by "everybody" you mean McDermott? Thibs technically went 10 deep last night. He even did what everyone here wanted in barely playing Hinrich and running with Brooks for like the entire game.

McD is definitely something that pisses me off. McD is basically a young version of Dunn, who we miss so much, so why not play him a little? Also, I wasn't referring to just this game. I even gave Thib's some props for playing Kirk less and Brooks more a few posts ago. The Bulls were also visibly tired. He should have been doing this the whole time.

It really has to do with this whole bad stretch for the Bulls. I just don't believe Thib's is doing a good job managing the players. He's been playing Kirk way too much. Niko has been getting approx 12 minutes lately after looking pretty good.

Just look at Snell, he's looked pretty good. What's the difference? Well, he's getting minutes. I'd also like to see our bigs get equal minutes. I liked what Moore was was bringing to the table for a bit, what happened to that? Even Nazr came in one game and gave us a few minutes.

Thib's needs to learn how to pick and choose when to do this. Thib's has a bad habit of falling back to his favorite lineup and playing multiple guys 40+ minutes. This is not good for the team.

I hate the fact the only two things Thib's ever says is "discipline" and "effort". It sounds like Mel Tucker telling me we just "have to execute". Bullshit, the coach sometimes needs to create mismatches that will put the player in a position to be successful.

I don't see any creativity with Thib's and his offensive attack. I really don't believe he knows what he's doing on offense. I also don't see a real problem with management wanting to limit minutes, especially when they are investing a lot of money in their players, and injuries have been an issue.

Spread out the minutes and get all the players involved. I wouldn't ***** so much if we were winning. But we're not! Time to try something different. And like you say, Thib's tried something different last night against Pheonix, and the Bulls made a nice comeback.

Unfortunately, it was, again, too little too late, as the team was clearly tired from the night before. Just look at the missed FT's. The Bulls were #3 at FT shooting going in. It's no coinsidence that they couldn't all of a sudden hit a FT. They were freakin tired!

 

[Bear Pride]

My first thought upon finishing the article was, whose team is it?. Inconsistency can often be attributed to lack of identity.

... and lack of leadership.

 

[Axl Rose]

Maybe Pau is the main problem :shrugs:

theres a post on BAB saying this

personally i think the guy went a bit overboard...but what he said about Gasol not being as impactful as numbers suggest i agree with 100%

anyway i dont think its any one player or coach...its a combination of all of them

 

[clonetrooper264]

Just look at the missed FT's. The Bulls were #3 at FT shooting going in. It's no coinsidence that they couldn't all of a sudden hit a FT. They were freakin tired!

Fatigue is an easy excuse to use to fit the narrative. They could've just missed...misses do happen. Not saying fatigue wasn't a factor, but we don't know how big a factor it was. They finished the game shooting quite well from the line. If fatigue was really at there was, they would've missed all their free throws.

 

[Axl Rose]

are we sure Dunleavy will fix this?

heres the suns for comparison

 

[Bear Pride]

Fatigue is an easy excuse to use to fit the narrative. They could've just missed...misses do happen. Not saying fatigue wasn't a factor, but we don't know how big a factor it was. They finished the game shooting quite well from the line. If fatigue was really at there was, they would've missed all their free throws.

Think about what you said in that last statement. Do you really think that's true? I can't respond to that if that's what you believe. All ball players can reach down for a little extra. The point is they should be doing this in the playoffs, not mid season against the Suns.

 

[Bear Pride]

are we sure Dunleavy will fix this?

heres the suns for comparison

Is this why they say a picture is worth a 1000 words? :dunno:

 

[clonetrooper264]

Think about what you said in that last statement. Do you really think that's true? I can't respond to that if that's what you believe. All ball players can reach down for a little extra. The point is they should be doing this in the playoffs, not mid season against the Suns.

Hyperbole broski

 

[clonetrooper264]

are we sure Dunleavy will fix this?

heres the suns for comparison

These particular examples are easy to contrast as the Suns have several shooters on the floor. The Bulls have zero.

Rose (inconsistent), Butler (inconsistent), Snell (inconsistent), Gasol (has the ball), and Noah (not a shooter)

vs

Dragic (shooter), Bledsoe (inconsistent shooter), Morris (shooter), Tucker (meh shooter), and Len (not a shooter, but way out of the play in this picture)

Plus...the Bulls have already initiated the play in the top picture. The Suns look like they've just started to run whatever play they're going to run (probably some sort of off ball screen play). Obviously the Bulls' spacing will be worse, they're already 60% through a post up play.

Why does the Bulls' spacing suck?

1) Rose made the entry pass, his defender can sag off him given the way he shot in the game.
2) Butler's man is in the paint because he need not worry about Butler in the corner (2 passes away, basic defensive principle)
3) Snell is an inconsistent shooter and is two passes away. The correct defensive positioning is therefore the elbow area, where his defender is.
4) This is a post up play...we all know Pau wants to go into the paint...clog the paint since there's no consistent shooter on the floor.
5) Since this is a post play, the right side of the court is overloaded. This makes it easy to clog the paint.

Why does the Suns' spacing look amazing?

1) All the relevant perimeter Suns players are 3 feet beyond the three point line
2) This play clearly just started. They've likely just swung the ball from Dragic to Morris and are beginning the reverse to Bledsoe. There is therefore no reason for any Bulls defender other than Gasol to be in the paint.
3) Morris is a shooter. I don't know which Morris twin that is, but they both can shoot. Noah is in approximately the right position to make sure he doesn't just pop a 3.

How does Dunleavy fix this issue?

Replace Snell with Dunleavy in the picture. Imagine his defender plays him the same way as he did Snell. Pau is currently kicking the ball out to Rose. Rose drives, Dunleavy rotates towards the top of the circle. Dunleavy's defender is either A) going to help on Rose's drive which leaves Dunleavy wide open, or B) calling for a switch with Bledsoe which still gives Dunleavy a chance a good shot (ie attack the close out or he's open anyway).

OR

Dragic is forced to play all the way up on Dunleavy which gives Rose a better lane to drive and Butler more room to make a cut.

Let's say Pau is not passing the ball out to Rose. Rose can switch spots with Dunleavy and now Dragic cannot help. Bledsoe can help a little, but that leaves Derrick a lot of room to make a cut.

Let's say Dunleavy is the guy in the corner. His defender would not be in the paint. All Dunleavy would need to do then is rotate to the wing (Snell or whoever is there can just move or cut). Now he has an open 3. If Bledsoe rotates, swing it to Rose for what is now an open drive scenario.

 

[Axl Rose]

well you don't have to give me the run down on spacing and how it works (maybe you're just speaking in general)

while Dunleavy will def help some im not sure he'll be the savior was my point...if he is then i say Dunleavy for MVP lol

Thibs is gonna have try to create some lineups with spacing that works or Pax has to bring in another shooter

 

[clonetrooper264]

well you don't have to give me the run down on spacing and how it works (maybe you're just speaking in general)

while Dunleavy will def help some im not sure he'll be the savior was my point...if he is then i say Dunleavy for MVP lol

thibs is gonna have to create some lineups with spacing...nomore Rose-Hinrich-Butler-Pau garbage

Sorta speaking generally as you can mix and match players in these scenarios and get very similar results. My main beef is that in the top picture the Bulls are way into the play (plus it's a post play...the easiest play for the defense to pack the paint on) and in the bottom picture the Suns have just started their play (thus no reason for the spacing to be different than what it is). It's not a true representation of either team's spacing.

Dunleavy is not the savior, but he does help Thibs have an opportunity to have more shooters on the floor. Of course, if he'd just play McDermott, this would also help a lot. If only Butler and Rose were better shooters...this would not even be a problem.

 

[Axl Rose]

Sorta speaking generally as you can mix and match players in these scenarios and get very similar results. My main beef is that in the top picture the Bulls are way into the play (plus it's a post play...the easiest play for the defense to pack the paint on) and in the bottom picture the Suns have just started their play (thus no reason for the spacing to be different than what it is). It's not a true representation of either team's spacing.

Dunleavy is not the savior, but he does help Thibs have an opportunity to have more shooters on the floor. Of course, if he'd just play McDermott, this would also help a lot. If only Butler and Rose were better shooters...this would not even be a problem.

i don't think we can argue about bulls spacing, thas basically what it has been...when Dun comes back it will atleast give us a consistent option but we still wont have ideal spacing

i agree the suns pic is sorta cherry picked (i got them from realgm) and i almost didn't post it for that reason....but i wasn't sure if ppl would get what i was getting at

ppl all blame defense but its some issues on offense aswell...another problem being we run too much isolation

 

[Crystallas]

They play basketball. Yes, fucking basketball.

Training hard? I want to know what they are doing that is so hard, that it is a bad thing? Seriously. I'm a vet, we trained until we broke. We weren't anywhere near the genetically gifted freaks these guys are, but we trained longer, harder, more often than NBA players doing stupid shit, not targeted and effective training. This whole "run guys into the ground" argument is bullshit. The team has a state of the art facility for training with high tech monitoring and recovery. Not boulder and log lifting , pit climbing and gravel running.

Jen needs to focus on developing these individual conditioning programs, and stop undermining the coaches and doctors. Seriously, the organization recognized injury issues and built the most advanced health and training center in all of basketball. If you can't get players to stick to the program, you can't try to win their respect by abusing your position to get them days off.

Or you simply replace her with someone that WILL do the job they were hired for, without creating hostility between other members of the staff.

 

[clonetrooper264]

i don't think we can argue about bulls spacing, thas basically what it has been...when Dun comes back it will atleast give us a consistent option but we still wont have ideal spacing

Ideal in what sense though? It's not going to be like that Suns pic, regardless of where in the play it is. We just don't have a lineup where we can run with 4 shooters on the perimeter. If ideal is having Gasol by himself in the post with 4 shooters, then yes, we'll never have ideal spacing. We can have better spacing given the personnel we have though. Part of that is offensive design. Part of that is just players making shots. If Rose or Butler are hot from 3, the spacing will be different than if they're ice cold. That's just what we have to live with.

i agree the suns pic is sorta cherry picked (i got them from realgm) and i almost didn't post it for that reason....but i wasn't sure if ppl would get what i was getting at

lol that pic is so cherry picked it shouldn't even be used in this argument. Actually, both are. I got what you meant, but the pictures (both of them) are generally misleading.

ppl all blame defense but its some issues on offense aswell...another problem being we run too much isolation

The problem runs deep...it's all facets of the our game that's gone wrong. Would spacing be an issue if we didn't let the Suns grab all those offensive boards and get all those fastbreak points? Perhaps not.

 

[Axl Rose]

Ideal in what sense though? It's not going to be like that Suns pic, regardless of where in the play it is. We just don't have a lineup where we can run with 4 shooters on the perimeter. If ideal is having Gasol by himself in the post with 4 shooters, then yes, we'll never have ideal spacing. We can have better spacing given the personnel we have though. Part of that is offensive design. Part of that is just players making shots. If Rose or Butler are hot from 3, the spacing will be different than if they're ice cold. That's just what we have to live with.

agree we don't have the personnel and that really falls on PaxGars shoulders (they relied on 2 rookies)

Thibs should probably give Doug another go and mess around with the available shooters we have (Dun, Brooks, Doug, Nikola)

if that doesn't work then we need to make some kinda move to get another shooter to throw in the rotation for Thibs to utilize (and not stick on the end of the bench)

 

[RoseMVP1]

Gasol just doesn't seem to do good against physical bigs, if he got switched with Taj that could help. Gasol could dominate backup bigs off the bench and then Noah could go back to doing his thing. Probably won't happen though.

 

[Axl Rose]

Gasol just doesn't seem to do good against physical bigs, if he got switched with Taj that could help. Gasol could dominate backup bigs off the bench and then Noah could go back to doing his thing. Probably won't happen though.

Nikola is the ideal fit with the starting lineup however his play is too spotty

sometimes hes really good, sometimes hes really lost

 

[clonetrooper264]

well i don't mean we should have spacing like the suns pic...but just one shooter on the floor with Rose/Jimmy/Pau/Noah it will still be fairly congested

agree we don't have the personnel and that really falls on PaxGars shoulders...

but Thibs will have to try to figure something out if not then we need to make some kinda move to get another shooter to throw in the rotation for Thibs to utilize

The issue with spacing ultimately resides in having our shooters not being very good defensive players. Dunleavy is the best option as he's usually not a trainwreck and he's always a threat to hit 3s. We have Brooks who is decent defensively, but gets caught up on screens and is very small. Hinrich is kind of the reverse (solid defense, but offensively not as much). Though it is now February so Kirk is going to start getting better soonish. McDermott is basically a defensive trainwreck right now and doesn't have any confidence offensively. Mirotic is decent when playing PF, but at SF he doesn't quite know how to use his body as well. And then we have Snell who is just as inconsistent as Kirk.

So what? We have guys who can make 3s. If we really wanted floor spacing, we could have it (ie Rose, Brooks, Dunleavy, Mirotic, Gasol). But how long can you run such a lineup for? This is what Thibs has to decide. I think we have seen him use such lineups when we really needed scoring. Without having Dunleavy though it limits how many lineups you can have where you can keep up defensive competence for an extended period of time.

 

[Crystallas]

Nikola is the ideal fit with the starting lineup however his play is too spotty

sometimes hes really good, sometimes hes really lost

sometimes he's really rookie

 

[clonetrooper264]

Nikola is the ideal fit with the starting lineup however his play is too spotty

sometimes hes really good, sometimes hes really lost

If there's no one on the other team who can burn him from the SF spot, Niko usually does pretty well. Problem is, there's usually someone who can.