IST: Chicago Cubs (1-1) at Colorado Rockies (2-0)

[chibears55]

No. Your post is dumb! A good hitter is a good hitter. Clutch comes from being a good hitter and performing as normal. IOW there isn't any such thing as clutch.

Sure there is..

A clutch hitter could be either a good hitter or average hitter..

A clutch hitter is someone who more times then not comes through with a big hit when needed..
IE: 2 out hits/RBI, game tying hits, game winning hits

 

[chibears55]

Those who had Coghlin with the Cubs first homer of season is a winner...

Olt just went yard....

Yep bats have awoke so far tonight...
Even Hammel has 2 hits

 

[beckdawg]

Blah, Blah, Blah. And that's precisely where the metric heads lose me.

With evidence? I mean logically think about it. A good player is still going to be a good player in the clutch. They aren't suddenly a better player then. On the other hand you're not surprised when Darwin Barney does nothing in a clutch spot.

Just googling best clutch hitters gives me the following link

Miguel Cabrera(career .320/.397/.563)
Mike Trout(.306/.396/.550)
Andrew McCutchen(.298/.385/.497)
Giancarlo Stanton(.271/.365/.539)
David Ortiz(.285/.379/.546)
Pablo Sandoval(.294/.346/.464)
Buster Posey(.309/.375/.487)
Robinson Cano(.309/.358/.499)
Paul Goldschmidt(.293/.383/.525)
Joey Votto(.311/.417/.535)
Troy Tulowitzki(.300/.374/.518)
Victor Martinez(.306/.373/.474)
Jose Abreu(.314/.381/.581)
Matt Carpenter(.293/.379/.432)
Jose Altuve(.301/.339/.399)
Aramis Ramirez(.285/.343/.496)

The *worst* player on that list average wise is Giancarlo Stanton who's a 2x All-Star and 1x Silver Slugger at 25. The worst in terms of OBP is Altuve who's a 2x All-Star and 1x Silver Slugger at 24. The point here isn't that these players are bad in high leverage situations. The point is they are good players regardless of the situation. My point here is it's not like people are saying Andrelton Simmons is a great clutch hitter(career .251/.296/.371).

 

[Bear Pride]

Sure there is..

A clutch hitter could be either a good hitter or average hitter..

A clutch hitter is someone who more times then not comes through with a big hit when needed..
IE: 2 out hits/RBI, game tying hits, game winning hits

LOL, I don't know any player in any sport that doesn't believe in pressure players. It's ridiculous to say so as well, imo. :smh:

 

[Bear Pride]

Those who had Coghlin with the Cubs first homer of season is a winner...

Olt just went yard....

Yep bats have awoke so far tonight...
Even Hammel has 2 hits

And Olt with the back to back. Give me $400 on the over tonight!

 

[Bear Pride]

With evidence? I mean logically think about it. A good player is still going to be a good player in the clutch. They aren't suddenly a better player then. On the other hand you're not surprised when Darwin Barney does nothing in a clutch spot.

Just googling best clutch hitters gives me the following link

Miguel Cabrera(career .320/.397/.563)
Mike Trout(.306/.396/.550)
Andrew McCutchen(.298/.385/.497)
Giancarlo Stanton(.271/.365/.539)
David Ortiz(.285/.379/.546)
Pablo Sandoval(.294/.346/.464)
Buster Posey(.309/.375/.487)
Robinson Cano(.309/.358/.499)
Paul Goldschmidt(.293/.383/.525)
Joey Votto(.311/.417/.535)
Troy Tulowitzki(.300/.374/.518)
Victor Martinez(.306/.373/.474)
Jose Abreu(.314/.381/.581)
Matt Carpenter(.293/.379/.432)
Jose Altuve(.301/.339/.399)
Aramis Ramirez(.285/.343/.496)

The *worst* player on that list average wise is Giancarlo Stanton who's a 2x All-Star and 1x Silver Slugger at 25. The worst in terms of OBP is Altuve who's a 2x All-Star and 1x Silver Slugger at 24. The point here isn't that these players are bad in high leverage situations. The point is they are good players regardless of the situation. My point here is it's not like people are saying Andrelton Simmons is a great clutch hitter(career .251/.296/.371).

Like I said.... Blah, Blah, Blah!

 

[chibears55]

With evidence? I mean logically think about it. A good player is still going to be a good player in the clutch. They aren't suddenly a better player then. On the other hand you're not surprised when Darwin Barney does nothing in a clutch spot.

Just googling best clutch hitters gives me the following link

Miguel Cabrera(career .320/.397/.563)
Mike Trout(.306/.396/.550)
Andrew McCutchen(.298/.385/.497)
Giancarlo Stanton(.271/.365/.539)
David Ortiz(.285/.379/.546)
Pablo Sandoval(.294/.346/.464)
Buster Posey(.309/.375/.487)
Robinson Cano(.309/.358/.499)
Paul Goldschmidt(.293/.383/.525)
Joey Votto(.311/.417/.535)
Troy Tulowitzki(.300/.374/.518)
Victor Martinez(.306/.373/.474)
Jose Abreu(.314/.381/.581)
Matt Carpenter(.293/.379/.432)
Jose Altuve(.301/.339/.399)
Aramis Ramirez(.285/.343/.496)

The *worst* player on that list average wise is Giancarlo Stanton who's a 2x All-Star and 1x Silver Slugger at 25. The worst in terms of OBP is Altuve who's a 2x All-Star and 1x Silver Slugger at 24. The point here isn't that these players are bad in high leverage situations. The point is they are good players regardless of the situation. My point here is it's not like people are saying Andrelton Simmons is a great clutch hitter(career .251/.296/.371).

Can you find stats of who has the best 2 out RBI AVG, game tying/winning AVG? Last season

That probably the best way to see who the better clutch hitters are..

Obviously hitters with high batting AVG are going to be considered good clutch hitters over those who hit .260 or .270 based more so on the AVG because their the ones fans figure would come through cause their better hitters, but doesn't necessarily mean all of them are "Clutch" hitters..

Wouldn't surprise me to see some .260 hitters hitting. 300 in those clutch situations and seeing some .300 hitters hitting under AVG in those same situations. .

 

[beckdawg]

Like I said.... Blah, Blah, Blah!

Not even sure what you're on about... as I said metric people aren't saying clutch(defined as high leverage) doesn't exist. I'm simply saying the perception of who performs well in those situations is skewed toward better players. Fangraphs measures this in LI(leverage Index). If we look at the players with the highest pLI(player's average leverage index for all game events) we get the following link.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...eam=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=8,d

Like I said before, it's not surprising to see good players hit well in high leverage situations. They hit well in general. The problem with the perception is people act as though that star player hits better in high leverage situations than they do normally which in most cases isn't really true. For example, I highly doubt anyone talking about "clutch" is going to say Casey McGehee was the most clutch player in 2014 or that Ryan Doumit was the most clutch player in 2013. Invariably anyone who talks about a clutch player is almost always going to be talking about an All-Star caliber player. That's not that these players are "clutch," it's that they are good player simple.

 

[beckdawg]

Can you find stats of who has the best 2 out RBI AVG, game tying/winning AVG? Last season

I mean this is the entire point behind fangraph's LI(leverage index). It's slightly more complicated than just that stat which i mean obviously it would be because when is any metric not? I'd argue that just using 2 out numbers for last year would be far too low of a sample size to draw any real conclusion anyways. I am not professing to be an expert on it here but from my understanding they essentially calculate it by measuring how a play changes odds of winning. For example, if one play drastically changes a teams chances to win that would be a high leverage situation. If you want to read more you can find a better description than i can give here

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/li/

 

[Bear Pride]

Not even sure what you're on about... as I said metric people aren't saying clutch(defined as high leverage) doesn't exist. I'm simply saying the perception of who performs well in those situations is skewed toward better players. Fangraphs measures this in LI(leverage Index). If we look at the players with the highest pLI(player's average leverage index for all game events) we get the following link.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...eam=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=8,d

Like I said before, it's not surprising to see good players hit well in high leverage situations. They hit well in general. The problem with the perception is people act as though that star player hits better in high leverage situations than they do normally which in most cases isn't really true. For example, I highly doubt anyone talking about "clutch" is going to say Casey McGehee was the most clutch player in 2014 or that Ryan Doumit was the most clutch player in 2013. Invariably anyone who talks about a clutch player is almost always going to be talking about an All-Star caliber player. That's not that these players are "clutch," it's that they are good player simple.

With all due respect, I'm not going on about anything. You might as well not take this subject up with me, and I say that respectfully. I played the game for too long to hear a bunch of metric heads say that clutch, or pressure players, don't exist. In fact, it's so ridiculous, I don't even want to talk about it anymore.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Sure there is..

A clutch hitter could be either a good hitter or average hitter..

A clutch hitter is someone who more times then not comes through with a big hit when needed..
IE: 2 out hits/RBI, game tying hits, game winning hits

That isn't the way real life works. That's how your perception works.

 

[Bear Pride]

The bullpen's gonna win this game. Losing Grimm to the DL hurts.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Soler really is solid. It is going to be a joy to watch him for a long time.

 

[Parade_Rain]

So much for Castro not having power!

 

[Bear Pride]

Castro! He's say's "who cares about my defense?" :lol: Cubs getting the long ball going finally. :yep:

 

[chibears55]

That isn't the way real life works. That's how your perception worlks.

Its a good thing were not talking about real life then, cause a game of baseball is far from being real life....

 

[Bear Pride]

So much for Castro not having power!

Who said Castro doesn't have power? :dunno: Besides, everyone has power in Colorado. :yep:

 

[Parade_Rain]

Its a good thing were not talking about real life then, cause a game of baseball is far from being real life....

Yep. Castro isn't a real human being and his contract is paid in monopoly money. There isn't anything real about MLB. It's like the WWE. Everything is scripted.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Who said Castro doesn't have power? :dunno: Besides, everyone has power in Colorado. :yep:

Did you see the text is green?

 

[beckdawg]

I played the game for too long to hear a bunch of metric heads say that clutch, or pressure players, don't exist. In fact, it's so ridiculous, I don't even want to talk about it anymore.

I literally just said that's not what the metrics suggest... what I'm saying is people think "Oh Jeter is clutch. Look at all his big plays in the playoffs!" However, when you look at his numbers in high leverage situations or "clutch" if you prefer that term they aren't significantly different than his numbers the rest of the time. The point isn't that clutch doesn't exist. The point as I said before is that people believe more that a good player is clutch as opposed to lessor players. In the case of Jeter, it's easy to think of all these plays he's made. What people don't think about is the fact that he's likely top 10 all time in playoff games. In other words, comparative to other people he's had far more chances to come up big not to mention as a hitter he's obviously never been a bad player.

Put another way, the metrics say these people are the best hitters in high leverage situations over the past 20 years

1 Jesus Flores
2 Willie McGee
3 Dave Clark
4 Jim Eisenreich
5 Doug Strange
6 Greg Dobbs
7 Joe Orsulak
8 Dave Magadan
9 Brayan Pena
10 Dave Hansen

No one is honestly going to talk about these guys when they talk about clutch. They are going to bring up guys like Jeter or Miggy or whomever you prefer even though those player's aren't particularly better players in "clutch" situations than they are in "non-clutch" situations. Miggy isn't better in the clutch. He's just really fucking good all the time and people view him as clutch because of it.