IST: Cubs vs Cards

[CSF77]

Better topic

Kyle Hendricks throws 81-pitch shutout

www.mlb.com

 

[chibears55]

Like... i don't get this narrative at all. I'm not suggesting the people saying the cubs have done this are out right liars but I've seen plenty of negative takes from local media in regard to Russell since all this came out. So, why would the cubs suddenly now start doing this? And more importantly would they really be that dumb? This is typical streisand effect territory. If they were in fact doing this they are just making the pr nightmare worse.

To be blunt, does anyone give a **** about Chapman in NY? Does anyone even mention Jose Reyes? Does anyone mention Osuna? Not saying that's a good thing but the story on this stuff quickly fades if you just let it. So, I really don't get why anyone in cubs PR would be dumb enough to stir this up.

I didn't say they did do it and I really dont think their dumb enough to have...

I said if they did say something, it could be for the reason I mentioned

 

[beckdawg]

I said if they did say something, it could be for the reason I mentioned

I didn't mean to cite you like this. Basically just replied to you cuz that was the subject being discussed. What's even weirder about that story is it seems to solely be coming from the national media. None in the local cubs guys have said anything about it. Seems to me it's probably a case of some national guys wanting to run hit pieces and the cubs chose not to accommodate their requests for quotes from maddon or theo or whomever. If that's the case i mean... i sorta see where the cubs are coming from. They don't have to participate in someone tearing down someone on their team. But I could also see how someone would see that as being black balled for not doing puff pieces.

At the end of the day I mean Theo's the guy calling the shots and I've yet to see him shy away from any question regarding Russell. So the whole thing just seems like either a giant misunderstanding or utter bullshit.

 

[fatbeard]

And if that's the case like I said that's fine. If I'm honest I'd probably keep sending descalso out there because he really seems to fit the pro ABs they need out of a lead off hitter. Were Russell called up i'd probably have him just be the primary sub for him and Baez on days off unless Russell really starts proving he is a better hitter. I'd probably just have Zobrist only play OF and send down Zagunis. That's probably how I'd play things but to me whether Baez plays SS or 2B when Russell plays with him is irrelevant which is why I don't get this entire debate.

I think the elephant in the room is that we all know Descalso is a replacement-level player and eventually he's going to show why he doesn't belong on the field every day. He's not exactly tearing it up right now, either (.1 WAR, 100 wRC+). The only thing he does is take walks; he doesn't hit for average, doesn't hit for power, strikes out quite a bit, isn't a stolen base threat, below-average defender. Eventually Russell is going to force the issue, because he's too talented not to.

 

[beckdawg]

I think the elephant in the room is that we all know Descalso is a replacement-level player and eventually he's going to show why he doesn't belong on the field every day. He's not exactly tearing it up right now, either (.1 WAR, 100 wRC+). The only thing he does is take walks; he doesn't hit for average, doesn't hit for power, strikes out quite a bit, isn't a stolen base threat, below-average defender. Eventually Russell is going to force the issue, because he's too talented not to.

Maybe. I mean I don't view Descalso as any kind of long term fixture. But he's seeing 4.45 P/PA. That's 6th best in the majors. And I feel like that sets the tone because you look up and down a typical line up on a given day.... the pitcher has to work his ass off. You typically have what like Descalso then Bryant who's at 3.85 then Rizzo at 4.19, Schwarber at 4.18, Contreras at 4.33. Baez is one of your few "easy" at bats pitches wise and he's destroying you as a hitter. Heyward like wise is on the lower side at 3.47 but he's also destroying the ball.

The cubs are averaging 4.46 PA per inning. Cubs as a team are averaging 3.96 P/PA so on average you're talking roughly 17.7 pitches per inning. And if you figure most starters are out by 100 pitches that means on average the cubs are knocking the starter out after 5.2. Maybe it is just placebo but having watched the games it really feels like this is wearing down pitchers to the point they make mistakes. To me the team feels different than 2017 and 2018 and feels much more like 2016. In 17/18 it felt like there were too many times where they'd just give the opposing starter an easy inning where they could get a quick 1-2-3. In 2016 and this year it seems like yes the cubs get out but even when guys are getting out they are making the starter show them 4-5 pitches before the end up going down.

And that's not to say that Russell can't do that too. Last year he saw 3.96 P/PA. All I'm saying is I think the above stuff I mentioned is helping them and Descalso while not your ideal hitter does seem to provide value in the professional at bats. Also, I think he may have a tad bit more power in him. Nothing crazy mind you but he had a .224 ISO last year on the road. So it's not like his .198 ISO last year was entirely based on playing in AZ. And as for k's... I don't think all K's are created equal. I still think all k's are bad to an extent but a 4-5 pitch K is better than a 3 pitch k. And if we go back to 2015 Fowler, he had a .250/.346/.411 triple slash. Descalso is currently sitting .256/.341/.397. Obviously 2016 Fowler went off way more than that but I think it's worth comparing Descalso to a pretty good 2015 Fowler as well(3 fWAR albeit in CF not 2B).

 

[chibears55]

Zobrist struggle hasn't helped either..
He supposed to be their go to guy for 2B , LF, and RF

 

[fatbeard]

Zobrist struggle hasn't helped either..
He supposed to be their go to guy for 2B , LF, and RF

Zobrist is about to turn 38. I don't think the Cubs were banking on him being their "go-to guy" for anything this year, except for the occasional pinch hit.

 

[TL1961]

Baez has maybe the quickest exchange from glove to hand in the game. Russell arm is significantly weaker. Baez throws about 96 mph.Russell has had right shoulder problems for the past two years and his arm has suffered from it.

This is like the 5000th post saying the same thing. Why are we still discussing this? why is this not its own thread?

 

[TL1961]

I agree with this, but Russell not even close to being one of the best 8 they should play everyday..

That’s ridiculous to say that a very very very good defensive middle infielder is not one of your best eight because of batting stats is just ignorant.

So many fans are so determined to count only offense. It makes no sense.

 

[SilenceS]

Saying that the only thing Russell does better than Baez is make more routine plays is such a mountain of bullshit.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.a...am=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=13,d

You are honestly going to say that Russell does anything more? I know you watch games. Arm? Baez. Range? Baez. Bat? Baez. What am I missing? You are legit arguing for a guy that hasnt succeeded in shit. Bote is a better 3rd baseman than Bryant. Should Bote start over Bryant? Baez is the best player on the team. Stop acting like Russell beats him. Hit me up when Russell routine plays almost gets him an MVP. This is the most insane convo I have heard. Baez defense is tip top right now and he is doing it all and we are arguing fucking Russell who at this point is not a starter on this team. Mind fucking blown

 

[SilenceS]

This is like the 5000th post saying the same thing. Why are we still discussing this? why is this not its own thread?

It was discussed in this thread. Its being discussed in this thread. lol

 

[SilenceS]

This is entirely a strawman argument and I haven't claimed this is what should happen. Why are you still coming at me over this shit? I'm not the one arguing the point you seem to think I am. I've literally said multiple times I don't care who plays at SS and I'm cool with whatever Joe decides. The only issue I have is people claiming that Baez is a top 5 DEFENSIVE SS. He's just not. I think you can make the case he's top 10 especially if you factor in the difficult plays he makes others don't.

Honestly I just don't understand why you have such a hard on for this one particular point. Baez can be the best SS and for that matter best player not named trout in the league and still be a good but not great defensive SS. I mean Trout isn't the best defensive CF in baseball and may not be top 5 either but he's still easily the best player in baseball. Baez has over 3000 innings between SS and 2B. That's more than enough data to judge him on and that's 5 years for him to grow. And none of that data suggests he's a clear cut top 5 defender at either 2B or SS. And like I said, that's fine. But when you have objective data and choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your world view that's just being a homer.

Another argument I don't get is how Baez some how is less valuable playing 2B were joe to choose that. He spent the majority of his break out 2018 playing you guessed it 2B. I'll say it again for what feels like the 100th time.... if Baez is hitting like he is now IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE HE PLAYS. I mean you could play him at 3B for all the fucks I give. What matters to me is how the daily roster fits together as a team. That's why I don't care about Heyward playing CF. It's why I don't care about Bryant playing either corner OF. I want Joe to put guys where they are in their best position to succeed full stop. If that's Javy 162 games a year at SS then cool. If that's Russell coming up and playing every game at SS and moving Baez to 2B then cool. If that's Javy playing like 80-90% of the games at SS and sometimes moving to 2B when the situation calls for it then cool.

Why people see that logic as unreasonable is beyond me. Put your best 8 guys out there every day(save for rest days) and move them around to fit the puzzle as needed. That's how I see things.

TLR and not even being a dick. I been drinking. I just want to focus is Russell isnt part of the best 8. Bote is a top flight defenser at third that can play other positions. His stick and clutchness has been great. Russell legit hasnt had a stick since 16. He isnt better than Baez at short. Yet again to everyone, you dont move your best player for an inferior player. Russell is not important to this team.

 

[Parade_Rain]

TLR and not even being a dick. I been drinking. I just want to focus is Russell isnt part of the best 8. Bote is a top flight defenser at third that can play other positions. His stick and clutchness has been great. Russell legit hasnt had a stick since 16. He isnt better than Baez at short. Yet again to everyone, you dont move your best player for an inferior player. Russell is not important to this team.

He isn’t important and that’s why you don’t put Russell at SS, except as a backup.

 

[TL1961]

I think the elephant in the room is that we all know Descalso is a replacement-level player and eventually he's going to show why he doesn't belong on the field every day. He's not exactly tearing it up right now, either (.1 WAR, 100 wRC+). The only thing he does is take walks; he doesn't hit for average, doesn't hit for power, strikes out quite a bit, isn't a stolen base threat, below-average defender. Eventually Russell is going to force the issue, because he's too talented not to.

THIS!!

People love to hate the starter and love the backup, but it’s so obvious why they are in those roles.

 

[TL1961]

TLR and not even being a dick. I been drinking. I just want to focus is Russell isnt part of the best 8. Bote is a top flight defenser at third that can play other positions. His stick and clutchness has been great. Russell legit hasnt had a stick since 16. He isnt better than Baez at short. Yet again to everyone, you dont move your best player for an inferior player. Russell is not important to this team.

Russell is absolutely one of your two best middle infield defenders.

Bote playing well defensively at third seems to be an argument for why Russell should be playing second, not an argument why he should not be playing.

 

[Parade_Rain]

Russell is absolutely one of your two best middle infield defenders.

Bote playing well defensively at third seems to be an argument for why Russell should be playing second, not an argument why he should not be playing.

Russell hasn’t hit since 2016. The era of defensive SS with no offense left baseball decades ago.

 

[chibears55]

That’s ridiculous to say that a very very very good defensive middle infielder is not one of your best eight because of batting stats is just ignorant.

So many fans are so determined to count only offense. It makes no sense.

Some only count defense, makes no sense

I look at it like this and why I dont see the real need to make a change now..
30+ games in, has the MI defense been bad and cost them games to this point?specifically the 2B combos...No
But, those MI offense has helped win them quite a few games
Plus
These guys team wise has such a good rhythm going and been clicking, why mess with it by adding a guy and I'm gonna go here, a guy that some may have an issue with now because of what he did

 

[CSF77]

On Iowa last night.

Russell went 1-4 with a grandslam. Hitting .220 now.

Happ walked 3x. No hits. This guy is almost useless now. .230 BA.

Montgomery pitched 6 innings.. gave up 1 run in a strong start.

I really don't know what their plan is right now with these guys. At this point I believe Montgomery is a major league quality starter.

I'll be honest here. I'm not against them utilizing these guys in a trade for a high leverage arm in July. I'm not sold that Morrow will ever pitch in a Cub uni ever again and this merry-go-round bull pen will be a huge weakness in high leverage play off innings.

We saw this in 2016. It got to the point that the pen was not trusted. It got them there. That was it.

So I see that as a pending hot bed topic. The whole Russell/Baez/Bote/Descanasio topic is fine to bring up now. Zobrist also. I think that he should not be utilized as much as he is now but he is a OF not a IF this year and should not be in the conversation.

If we are arguing about Almora losing AB's that is fine.

So IMO most of these issues will settle out. If I had to guess Theo would love that Happ and Russell rebound. Pushes Happ to CF and Baez to 2B. Morrow and Edwards fill the pen and all problems solved internal.

That never happens.

So I expect a trade pending. This year the need is going to be a high leverage arm(with control). Next year with cleared payroll I really believe that they should sign a RF and make Heyward CF full time.

 

[chibears55]

Next year with cleared payroll I really believe that they should sign a RF and make Heyward CF full time.

Lol a 30 yo 6'5 250 pound first time full time CFer...
Yeah, dont see much ground being covered out there..

He a GG RFer, just leave him be

 

[SilenceS]

Russell hasn’t hit since 2016. The era of defensive SS with no offense left baseball decades ago.

You telling me we arent in the era of afros and astro turf?