Jordan: I could score 100 in current NBA

houheffna

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Ok there's some serious revisionist history going in this thread. And Hou I am surprised at how much you are trashing Clyde's career. Everyone here is acting like the guy was Xavier McDaniel. Clyde is one of the 50 best all-time & for good reason. He could do everything on the court; score, rebound, pass, block & steal. The guy is the 3rd best rebounding guard EVER in the history of the NBA. I remember him nearly having a quadruple double in a game when he was with the Rockets.

And c'mon people, you are making out those Portland teams to be the equivalent of Wade's Heat in '06, which is so far from the truth it's beyond the realm of stupidity. Those Blazers teams had Terry Porter, Jerome Kersey, Buck Williams, Danny Ainge, young Cliff Robinson, & yes, Kevin Duckworth, who I have news for all you youngins out there, was a GOOD center. Injuries cut his career short. Hell the Blazers were a top 5 offense for the majority of Clyde's time there, not to mention one of the best rebounding teams. The faced some very tough competition come playoff time in the Lakers, Pistons, Bulls etc. & unfortunately, much like the Knicks, Pacers, & Jazz they never got the big prize thanks to one Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

I stated several times that Drexler was an exceptional rebounder. But Wade could do all of those things you mentioned, and some of those things Wade can do better, which is my point. Saying Drexler can "block and steal" doesn't mean much, that is like saying he can eat and sleep. Wade is still a better defensive player...

Duckworth was good, but Shaq? Even in 2006 Shaq was at a level Duckworth could never reach.

I never said Reggie Miller was better than Drexler either. But in crunch time...Drexler would take a back seat to Miller. That was all I said. I stated that Drexler was the next best guy behind Jordan at that position. Though one of my homies believes that Dumars in his prime was better.
 
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houheffna

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Yeah, I know about what he did against the Knicks. OK.



No, that has not been shown. All that youve accomplished is prove that youre nothing more than a parrot.



I dont think Duckworth expected to be as involved in teh offense as Shaq would have. Shaq is/was better than Duckworth clearly and so to expect to be more involved is justified. But Portland played a lot of tempo which isnt ideal for someone who wants to be as heavily as involved in the offense as someone like Shaq. Also, at no point did I say Duckworth was ideal for that system but when youre talking about pushing tempo, you have to calibrate it to the level of involvement the center expects and also what theyre paid.

With this AAU and up tempo crap, you sound like a coach's son, where neither the coach or the son know what the heck they are talking about...

The Trailblazers would have adapted their game for Shaq, and it would have made that team better.

I suggested before anyone else on here that up to this point in their careers, Wade has accomplished more. Somehow, comparing Wade to Drexler means that people like you think I am downing Drexler and denying his greatness. That is not the case, after watching them both play and not talking all of this stupid garbage you are talking...I just think Wade is better. Plain and simple. That doesn't mean I don't like Drexler. Drexler played for my second favorite team.
 

TheStig

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ok i'd agree with hou, i think wade is better than drexler.

HOWEVER

dwyane wade is virtually without a doubt the second best player in the NBA today. perhaps rankings may get screwed up with james and wade on the same team, but i would say that lebron and wade are the two most talented and best players in the league RIGHT NOW. (for the record i'm leaving durant out of the top 2 b/c of the way he disappeared in the playoffs mostly).

clyde drexler was nowhere near the second best player in the league in 1990. ahead of him clearly is:

magic
michael
isiah
olajuwon
bird
malone
barkley
ewing

to name a few. yet we're still able to have an argument with a player outside the top ten in the nba at jordan's time and a top two player today.

and just to throw it out there, wade is very fragile and if he was guarded the way jordan was against the pistons, he might have broken every bone in his body.

Drexler finished in top 10 in mvp voting 3 yrs and 12th in a 4th. So clearly your assessment isn't time sensitive.

MVP Award Shares
1984-85 NBA 0.001 (22)
1987-88 NBA 0.108 (5)
1989-90 NBA 0.003 (12)
1990-91 NBA 0.078 (6)
1991-92 NBA 0.584 (2)
1992-93 NBA 0.001 (10)
1994-95 NBA 0.003 (14)
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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MVP voting is a horrible way to measure a player.

P.J. Brown finished 4th or 5th one season, while he was with the Hornets... just sayin'
 

Lex L.

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With this AAU and up tempo crap, you sound like a coach's son, where neither the coach or the son know what the heck they are talking about...

Hmmm...telling

The Trailblazers would have adapted their game for Shaq, and it would have made that team better.

Perhaps. But given the style of play at the time, cost, and what was available, Duckworth is who they had. Shaq wasnt even an opting.

But this isnt even a significant point. The only reason this went in that direction is because you were unclear in what you were asking when you asked if Drexler did the same thing you did. You never really clarified what you meant on the more relevant question but you have pursued these tangental sidebar topics. Weird.

I suggested before anyone else on here that up to this point in their careers, Wade has accomplished more.
And this is where its not really holding up to scrutiny. Understand that Ive said the whole time that Im not committed to one being better than the other. But I do object to the way you just loosely say stuff. And your criteria is flawed with inaccuracies and reasoning thats inconsistent.


Somehow, comparing Wade to Drexler means that people like you think I am downing Drexler and denying his greatness.

This goes back to what I said previously. In relative terms youre selling Drexler short because he happened to play at the same time as Jordan and had to go up against better teams than Wade had to face in the NBA finals.

That is not the case, after watching them both play and not talking all of this stupid garbage you are talking...I just think Wade is better.

Its obvious you feel that way. Its also obvious that you have this bias and it affects your analysis. You tailor everything to fit the bias. The bias isnt derived from the more weighty analysis. Its so bad, that it prompted me to look into it more and the more I look at it, the more I actually feel you are selling Drexler short because he played at the same time as Jordan. I was indifferent at the outset. My original position was one of questioning this indeniable "certainty" (according to you) that Wade is better.

Plain and simple. That doesn't mean I don't like Drexler. Drexler played for my second favorite team.

Yeah, after youve spent all this time tearing him down, thats just not going to work. Your reasoning has been full of inconsistencies the whole time, so why not resort to this.
 

Lefty

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It's just really funny how Lex continues to dodge my posts that absolutely shit all over his arbitrary and meaningless arguments. This is classic CCS.
 

houheffna

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It's just really funny how Lex continues to dodge my posts that absolutely shit all over his arbitrary and meaningless arguments. This is classic CCS.

Of course he is going to dodge your points...and insult others who disagree with him.
 

houheffna

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Hmmm...telling



Perhaps. But given the style of play at the time, cost, and what was available, Duckworth is who they had. Shaq wasnt even an opting.

But this isnt even a significant point. The only reason this went in that direction is because you were unclear in what you were asking when you asked if Drexler did the same thing you did. You never really clarified what you meant on the more relevant question but you have pursued these tangental sidebar topics. Weird.


And this is where its not really holding up to scrutiny. Understand that Ive said the whole time that Im not committed to one being better than the other. But I do object to the way you just loosely say stuff. And your criteria is flawed with inaccuracies and reasoning thats inconsistent.




This goes back to what I said previously. In relative terms youre selling Drexler short because he happened to play at the same time as Jordan and had to go up against better teams than Wade had to face in the NBA finals.



Its obvious you feel that way. Its also obvious that you have this bias and it affects your analysis. You tailor everything to fit the bias. The bias isnt derived from the more weighty analysis. Its so bad, that it prompted me to look into it more and the more I look at it, the more I actually feel you are selling Drexler short because he played at the same time as Jordan. I was indifferent at the outset. My original position was one of questioning this indeniable "certainty" (according to you) that Wade is better.



Yeah, after youve spent all this time tearing him down, thats just not going to work. Your reasoning has been full of inconsistencies the whole time, so why not resort to this.

No, I don't sell him short...I don't sell Dominique Wilkins short, or Stockton, or Malone or any other player from Jordan's era that I watched. Why? Because I witnessed the whole damn era!

I started off by saying that Drexler was a great player. I just believe Wade is better...I don't understand the problem. I believe Wade would have been better competition for Jordan himself than Drexler was...that is just my belief based on what I have seen. I would say the same about Kobe Bryant...sue me.
 

Lex L.

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Of course he is going to dodge your points...and insult others who disagree with him.

Not really. I have that guy on ignore. The guy is like a little dog that likes to chase cars. Im not going to stop just because he runs out in the street.
 

Lefty

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Not really. I have that guy on ignore. The guy is like a little dog that likes to chase cars. Im not going to stop just because he runs out in the street.

WHAT? That analogy makes absolutely no sense. Like, none. Zero.

That is of course, unless you mean, "I'm not going to stop making asinine arguments that can be proven wrong just because somebody proves me wrong." But somehow I don't think that's what you're admitting, or at least trying to.
 

FirstTimer

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Well this thread has been....interesting....

Just a few thoughts.

I think what people are confusing is how "physical" the game was in the mid to late 80's with how physical it was in the mid to late 90's when many people on this board started really watching basketball. Compared to the mid to late 90's the mid to late 80's was the Arena Football League. I know there are some rule changes but this current era of basketball is closer to the mid to late 80's than you would think, especially style wise. IMO most people on this board don't really know what kind of ball Drexler played in the 80's as their first taste of him was the NBA Films on ESPN talking about the Finals and then seeing him past his prime in Houston.

Relative to their era's Wade is the better player. Easily. Part of what I think hurts Drexler with this "eye test" though too is that he never really seemed like that great of an athlete. Even in the mid to late 80's he seemed to always be dribbling with his head down, was never a very fluid mover, but could fill it up very wel and could jump out of the gym. Drexler was really one of the last of his kind by the early 1990's as his game more resembled the late 1970's to early 1980's NBA than it did the era in which he played.

You'd watch Drexler dribble, run, cut, shoot, etc and come away very "meh" then it was tip off and he was one of the best in the league. He had this very "old guy at the YMCA" thing about him where you didn't take him seriously until it's 2pm and the guys team has been playing non-stop for 3 hours because he won't miss.

Drexler is always one of those guys that is either really underrated(as I may have even done in this post) or is vastly overrated when he's evaluated. His "peak" was rather short. But he was so good/very good for some many years it's mind numbing. Is he a HOF'er? Yes. Is he one of the 50 greatest players of all time(even at the time)..IMO no. Drexler is always a really interesting guy to evaluate. He was a damn good player but never really reached that NBA Super Star level..but always seemed to be right on the cusp.
 
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RamiTheBullsFan

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Clyde Drexler is definitely a top-50 player all-time... please try to name 50 better.
 

TheStig

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MVP voting is a horrible way to measure a player.

P.J. Brown finished 4th or 5th one season, while he was with the Hornets... just sayin'

Only when you quote it. He finished 14th once! Big difference. Compared to a guy like Drexler who had 4 top 10 spots. That would hint he has been a top 10 player a few times.
 

Lefty

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Clyde Drexler is definitely a top-50 player all-time... please try to name 50 better.

In no particular order:

Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Isiah Thomas
Dominique Wilkins
Kareem
Hakeem
Pete Maravich
Jerry West
Bill Russell
John Stockton
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Artis Gilmore
Tim Duncan
Manu Ginoboli
Shaquielle O'Neal
LeBron James
Dirk Nowitzki
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Kevin Garnett
Bob Pettit
Adrian Dantley
Kevin McHale
Clyde Lovelette
Yao Ming
Bailey Howell
Chauncey Billups
Dwight Howard
George Gervin
Carmelo Anthony
Pau Gasol
Rick Barry
Patrick Ewing
Vince Carter
Billy Cunningham
David Thompson
Dan Issel
Allen Iverson
Elgin Baylor
Bernard King
Bob McAdoo
Elvin Hayes
Paul Pierce
Alex English

Some are better than Drexler in WS/48, others just scoring in general. I realize that my list is not infallible, and thus a case for Drexler being in the top-50 still could be made, but he isn't "easily" in the top-50 by any means, as I purposely left off a lot of other players for various reasons (some don't have a comparable number of seasons in the league yet, while others played in the 40's and 50's).

So then, even if Drexler somehow works his way into the top-50, he will more than likely be pushed back out in only a few years.

Compared to a guy like Drexler who had 4 top 10 spots. That would hint he has been a top 10 player a few times.

No, it really doesn't. Nothing about MVP awards and the like are tangible, solid measures of a player's value or stature within the league.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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In no particular order:

Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Isiah Thomas
Dominique Wilkins
Kareem
Hakeem
Pete Maravich
Jerry West
Bill Russell
John Stockton
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Artis Gilmore
Tim Duncan
Manu Ginobili - nope
Shaquielle O'Neal
LeBron James
Dirk Nowitzki
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Kevin Garnett
Bob Pettit
Adrian Dantley
Kevin McHale
Clyde Lovelette
Yao Ming - helll no
Bailey Howell
Chauncey Billups - nope
Dwight Howard
George Gervin - nope
Carmelo Anthony - nope
Pau Gasol - nope
Rick Barry - nope
Patrick Ewing
Vince Carter - hellllllllllllllll no
Billy Cunningham
David Thompson
Dan Issel
Allen Iverson
Elgin Baylor
Bernard King
Bob McAdoo
Elvin Hayes
Paul Pierce - no
Alex English - no

And a lot of those other names are highly debatable- to say the least.
 

Gustavus Adolphus

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My favorite teams
  1. Chicago White Sox
  1. Chicago Bulls
  1. Chicago Bears
  1. Nebraska Cornhuskers
  2. Villanova Wildcats
In no particular order:

Michael Jordan
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Isiah Thomas
Dominique Wilkins
Kareem
Hakeem
Pete Maravich
Jerry West
Bill Russell
John Stockton
Julius Erving
David Robinson
Artis Gilmore
Tim Duncan
Manu Ginoboli
Shaquielle O'Neal
LeBron James
Dirk Nowitzki
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Kevin Garnett
Bob Pettit
Adrian Dantley
Kevin McHale
Clyde Lovelette
Yao Ming
Bailey Howell
Chauncey Billups
Dwight Howard
George Gervin
Carmelo Anthony
Pau Gasol
Rick Barry
Patrick Ewing
Vince Carter
Billy Cunningham
David Thompson
Dan Issel
Allen Iverson
Elgin Baylor
Bernard King
Bob McAdoo
Elvin Hayes
Paul Pierce
Alex English
Aside from Yao and Howell, my problem with a list like this is that you have C's and PF's on here. I realize the question was 'name 50 players better,' but I think (and I'll say the same about the original 50 greatest of all time) is that it is bullshit to compare what Kareem did in comparison to Clyde because they are asked to do two completely different things.

PS - Walt Frazier is not on your list and he should be.
 

Lefty

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And a lot of those other names are highly debatable- to say the least.

:obama::obama::obama::obama::obama::obama::obama:

Really? Have you learned nothing from recent discussions? I'll stick with the names of current players that you took issue with, be sure to pay attention, because I know it's going to be hard for you to wrap your brain around these concepts:

Let's assume that the players you took specific issue with (Billups, Anthony, Pierce, Ming and Carter) all have peripheral--with respect to scoring--statistics that wash out with those of Drexler. This may not be necessarily true in all cases (most of them actually are similar to Drexler per 36 minutes or excel in one category that would completely wipe out and exceed the differences in others, so this actually helps your position out), but I don't want to have to go through every single one of these guys and explain every minute detail to your satisfaction, mainly because I know that the more and more that I explain, the more and more you will helplessly flail at straws to cling to your point, and thus the more pain in the ass it will be for me.

So anyway, they all wash out in the peripherals, and the only differences we are (as we should be) interested in are those in the scoring department (given in points per 36 minutes):

Drexler: 21.3
Yao Ming: 21.1
Chauncey Billups: 17.2
Paul Pierce: 21.8
Carmelo Anthony: 24.4
Vince Carter: 22.9

Now, I'll forget for the moment that a majority of these guys actually out-score Drexler straight-up, and just jump straight into adjusting those point totals for the context of the modern era (up-ticking them by 11%, the difference in league-average scoring per game between Drexler's era and the modern era), effectively turning those point totals for the modern players into what the equivalent point totals would be in Drexler's day:

Drexler: 21.3 (he gets no boost because he's not changing contexts)
Yao Ming: 23.4
Chauncey Billups: 19.1
Paul Pierce: 24.1
Carmelo Anthony: 27.1
Vince Carter: 25.4

So then, all but one of the players on my list significantly out-score Drexler when viewed through the context of his (Drexler's) own era, and since we have assumed that all else is equal, they are therefore better than Drexler was, and they therefore retain their spot on the list.

Now, I know you want so badly to nit-pick at the little assumption I made at the beginning of this little study, but remember this: the vast majority of the players looked at above out-performed Drexler in the most important element of NBA basketball, so there would have to be some huge differences in peripheral stats to even consider removing them from their positions above Drexler (I checked, and there aren't).

What about Billups? Well, that's up to you: you can either admit that Drexler isn't "easily" in the top-50 of NBA players, or you can ask to have him removed completely, at which point I will just insert one of the other 5 or so players from the modern(ish) era that out-performed Drexler in an environment where it was harder to do the thing they out-performed him in. Your choice.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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On the contrary, I'm not going to turn this into a debate. Anybody who knows basketball is going to agree with me that Drexler was a better player than those guys. Simple as that.

Drexler>Carmelo Anthony
Drexler>Paul Pierce
Drexler>Yao Ming
Drexler>Manu Ginobili
and Drexler>Vince freakin' Carter.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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This shows your limited basketball knowledge... the fact you would say Clyde Drexler isn't a hands-down top 50 player in NBA History...

a guy who went nearly step-for-step with Jordan for the majority of both their careers

a guy who's career playoff bests in each category are:
-27+ points per-gm
-8+ rebs per-gm
-9+ assists per-gm
-2.5+ steals per-gm
-and 1 block per-gm

is ridiculous

And the fact that you don't even throw "field-goal percentage" into the equation is also ridiculous.

Drexler is better than roughly half those half on your "top-50" list. Forget VC, and the rest that I dismissed right away.
 

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