Keto and Intermittent Fasting

[gpphat]

Only when warranted.

These are discussion forums. Why people have to shit on threads in which they don't care to participate is beyond me. There are many mature people here who actually want a discussion.

Well you seem to spend more time worrying about what other people are posting and not enough time actually contributing...you'll get there one day

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[Fatman LOU]

I just read the intro, and first chapter. Don't bother. There is NO science here.

Cool thanks Xuder.

 

[Burque]

I guess I'll chime in w/ my personal anecdote. At one point I weighed nearly 250, but the "average" was probably more like 230. Decided I wanted to drop some weight, so I started:

- EATING LESS
- Kept my macros relatively in check (roughly 40/40/20)
- Got most of my carbs from complex sources (whole grains, sweet potatoes, etc)
- Cut out sugar as much as possible
- Protein sources generally pretty lean (fish, chicken, etc)
- Lots of fruit and vegetables
- Occasionally eat whatever the **** I want to, mostly to keep myself sane.

Got down to about 180 and decided that was enough, and decided to start going back up. Guess what I did? Same thing, but ATE MORE (probably around +500 of my TDEE), and shifted a little more to protein in my splits. Also started lifting again focusing mostly on big compound stuff (squats, deadlifts, bench, etc). I've slowly crept back up in weight, and most of the gain has been lean muscle mass. As of this AM I was 193. Thermodynamics is fun!

Seriously though. This shit isn't complicated. Eat clean (mostly for health reasons), consume less / more than your TDEE depending on goals, work out, and realize that this shit is a lifestyle change and not a fucking sprint.

My 2 cents.

See and I agree with this for long term. I am not going to stay on some strict keto diet forever. However to get me from point a to point B so I can worry about maintenance rather than trying to diet myself down slowly I would rather lose a chunk of weight and then eat healthy with some wiggle room. (ftr the Wife and I do really well eating healthy when we cook dinners every night, but it would be nice to add some rice, beans, and sweet potatoes to that.)

The long term problem I see for myself with this is alcohol. After Keto when I go to maintenance I cannot consume the calories that I do in alcohol anymore. It is something I am working on anyway as I drink too much and alcohol has negative effects on the body. For me, this is really about wanting to feel good. As I have gotten older I am having all this pain throughout various parts of the body throughout the day and I want to get that under control.

 

[ShiftyDevil]

I guess I'll chime in w/ my personal anecdote. At one point I weighed nearly 250, but the "average" was probably more like 230. Decided I wanted to drop some weight, so I started:

- EATING LESS
- Kept my macros relatively in check (roughly 40/40/20)
- Got most of my carbs from complex sources (whole grains, sweet potatoes, etc)
- Cut out sugar as much as possible
- Protein sources generally pretty lean (fish, chicken, etc)
- Lots of fruit and vegetables
- Occasionally eat whatever the **** I want to, mostly to keep myself sane.

Got down to about 180 and decided that was enough, and decided to start going back up. Guess what I did? Same thing, but ATE MORE (probably around +500 of my TDEE), and shifted a little more to protein in my splits. Also started lifting again focusing mostly on big compound stuff (squats, deadlifts, bench, etc). I've slowly crept back up in weight, and most of the gain has been lean muscle mass. As of this AM I was 193. Thermodynamics is fun!

Seriously though. This shit isn't complicated. Eat clean (mostly for health reasons), consume less / more than your TDEE depending on goals, work out, and realize that this shit is a lifestyle change and not a fucking sprint.

My 2 cents.

I started with Keto, then basically moved to this. Though the only macro I really worried about was keeping my protein 'higher'.

When I started lifting again it was really all big compound stuff, just to get my body used to not being trash again. I still do big compound stuff every workout, but I've started mixing in more body building style, targeted lifts as well.

The bolded/underlined bit is why I switched off Keto, I knew I wasn't going to do it my entire life so I switched to a diet that would be closer to that. But, for all you Keto dudes, if you like it it's great and you should do it.

 

[SilenceS]

I started with Keto, then basically moved to this. Though the only macro I really worried about was keeping my protein 'higher'.

When I started lifting again it was really all big compound stuff, just to get my body used to not being trash again. I still do big compound stuff every workout, but I've started mixing in more body building style, targeted lifts as well.

The bolded/underlined bit is why I switched off Keto, I knew I wasn't going to do it my entire life so I switched to a diet that would be closer to that. But, for all you Keto dudes, if you like it it's great and you should do it.

I’m more on your plane. I will only do keto for so long and will get back on it maybe twice a year. But, I don’t believe it is sustainable or even good for you for really long stretches.


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[Warrior Spirit]

I’m more on your plane. I will only do keto for so long and will get back on it maybe twice a year. But, I don’t believe it is sustainable or even good for you for really long stretches.

I think keto is very sustainable and while it seems to be a popular opinion that it's not good long term, I don't know where that comes from or what causes people to think like that. You're getting all the protein your body requires. You're leaning on the most healthy fats to fulfill that macro. Only thing your not getting a lot of is sugar and I don't think there's anybody left who thinks of sugar as a good thing.

At first, I wasn't sure it would be sustainable but as you change the type of food you go to most often, you lose old cravings and start craving that which you've been leaning on most recently. I, too, thought I'd revert to something with a more moderate amount of carbs but then just didn't see the need as I already like what I've been eating for keto. The thought of it being unnatural is silly. Babies are often in ketosis at the most crucial point of their development. People who frequent the gym in order to burn off that stored fat are actually working hard to get themselves in a temporary state of ketosis while keto peeps can easily be burning fat through the normal course of their day.

 

[SilenceS]

I think keto is very sustainable and while it seems to be a popular opinion that it's not good long term, I don't know where that comes from or what causes people to think like that. You're getting all the protein your body requires. You're leaning on the most healthy fats to fulfill that macro. Only thing your not getting a lot of is sugar and I don't think there's anybody left who thinks of sugar as a good thing.

At first, I wasn't sure it would be sustainable but as you change the type of food you go to most often, you lose old cravings and start craving that which you've been leaning on most recently. I, too, thought I'd revert to something with a more moderate amount of carbs but then just didn't see the need as I already like what I've been eating for keto. The thought of it being unnatural is silly. Babies are often in ketosis at the most crucial point of their development. People who frequent the gym in order to burn off that stored fat are actually working hard to get themselves in a temporary state of ketosis while keto peeps can easily be burning fat through the normal course of their day.

I’ve been through nutrition classes and more. What I find, IMO, is you have to be able to know what does what. Eating massive amounts of cheese and high sodium meats is not good. I know how to supplement because of my education and ability to make anything taste good. I know people that can make a terrible ham sandwich. Also, everyone body chemistry is different. It doesn’t always work well. It’s why I didn’t care about your keto strips. I only do it for a time but most people don’t have the time or ability to be with a doctor making sure all macros are correct and your body is responding. I don’t think it’s not sustainable. I think to be on keto you have to have knowledge of nutrition and ability to control what fats you really should use. Remember, this is a popular diet now with people that have no clue what a complex carb is and what correct fat does.


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[Burque]

I think keto is very sustainable and while it seems to be a popular opinion that it's not good long term, I don't know where that comes from or what causes people to think like that. You're getting all the protein your body requires. You're leaning on the most healthy fats to fulfill that macro. Only thing your not getting a lot of is sugar and I don't think there's anybody left who thinks of sugar as a good thing.

At first, I wasn't sure it would be sustainable but as you change the type of food you go to most often, you lose old cravings and start craving that which you've been leaning on most recently. I, too, thought I'd revert to something with a more moderate amount of carbs but then just didn't see the need as I already like what I've been eating for keto. The thought of it being unnatural is silly. Babies are often in ketosis at the most crucial point of their development. People who frequent the gym in order to burn off that stored fat are actually working hard to get themselves in a temporary state of ketosis while keto peeps can easily be burning fat through the normal course of their day.

I don't disagree about the sugar, but I think that things such as sweet potatoes, Brown Rice, and beans are not what I would consider unhealthy foods in context with meats and veggies.

 

[SilenceS]

I don't disagree about the sugar, but I think that things such as sweet potatoes, Brown Rice, and beans are not what I would consider unhealthy foods in context with meats and veggies.

Most doctors will tell you to eat those once a week on keto. It’s just portion size that gets people


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[TL1961]

Well you seem to spend more time worrying about what other people are posting and not enough time actually contributing...you'll get there one day

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You seem to have trouble estimating how much time it takes to post one thought.

I don't spend much time thinking about you, trust me.

It was a quick post to ask someone to act like an adult. It failed. But it wasn't a huge investment in time, effort, or emotion.

 

[SilenceS]

You seem to have trouble estimating how much time it takes to post one thought.

I don't spend much time thinking about you, trust me.

It was a quick post to ask someone to act like an adult. It failed. But it wasn't a huge investment in time, effort, or emotion.

Don’t worry about him. He just trying to trigger a reaction.


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[TL1961]

I think there are some great points here.

In general, if a diet requires you to be a nutritionist or a doctor, it may be doomed. But it is true that people can have more success of they first try to educate themselves.

One example is what I brought up earlier in this thread. South Beach will tell you to eat often. Keto and IF says fast for 18/6. Both have been very successful for large numbers of people.

Just reading this thread you can see some saying it's as simple as calories in, calories out. Much of what we get from so-called trained, educated professionals contradicts that of other professionals.

At the end of the day, stick to something that has some science and reasoning behind it, don't expect miracles or quick fixes, and as stated - make lifestyle changes, versus joining a fad for a month or so.

Ever see the celebs endorsing diets - Chris Berman lost 50+ on NutriSystem. And within 6 months was as big as a cow. Marie Osmond has lost 50 pounds 3 times or more. She passed out on stage while weighing 60 pounds too much in between NutriSystem ad campaigns.

Hopefully people find what works and find something they can stick with.

As far as Keto, someone mentioned "one cheat meal per month". That simply won't be sustainable for most people. If it is too restrictive, it won't last.

Good luck to those trying to lose, as well as everyone simply maintaining.

 

[TL1961]

Don’t worry about him. He just trying to trigger a reaction.


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I know. And I was dumb enough to reply.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

I’ve been through nutrition classes and more. What I find, IMO, is you have to be able to know what does what. Eating massive amounts of cheese and high sodium meats is not good. I know how to supplement because of my education and ability to make anything taste good. I know people that can make a terrible ham sandwich. Also, everyone body chemistry is different. It doesn’t always work well. It’s why I didn’t care about your keto strips. I only do it for a time but most people don’t have the time or ability to be with a doctor making sure all macros are correct and your body is responding. I don’t think it’s not sustainable. I think to be on keto you have to have knowledge of nutrition and ability to control what fats you really should use. Remember, this is a popular diet now with people that have no clue what a complex carb is and what correct fat does.


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Sometimes the teachers pass misinformation on to the students. Doctors are not as schooled in nutrition as people tend to believe and you'll certainly have no trouble finding Doctors who differ in their opinions of what's best nutrition wise. More often than not, they just go by what is currently viewed as the standard norm.

People's body chemistry really not that different. While you'll find many who react to different foods differently, you won't find any who benefit from frequent insulin spikes, the main thing keto looks to drastically cut down on.

There's also many people who do keto and avoid all dairy at the same time so nobody saying cheese is needed for keto. Too much salt not as bad a thing as once thought and you do require a higher intake of salt when on any low carbohydrate diet.

I don't disagree about the sugar, but I think that things such as sweet potatoes, Brown Rice, and beans are not what I would consider unhealthy foods in context with meats and veggies.

Don't think brown rice is any different than white rice and stuff like beans usually come with a lot of carbs unless you're just talking 'bout some plain green beans. The only non-keto food I've eaten on even a semi-regular basis since starting keto is the sweet potato. Don't eat a ton. There might be a week that goes by where I have none and there might be a week in which I total eating 3 or 4. I've been eating them from the beginning and they never caused any type setback so I give them the stamp of approval.

 

[HeHateMe]

You seem to have trouble estimating how much time it takes to post one thought.

I don't spend much time thinking about you, trust me.

It was a quick post to ask someone to act like an adult. It failed. But it wasn't a huge investment in time, effort, or emotion.

You have made a lot of posts like this towards gpphat in multiple threads now and it is kinda spoiling my user experience, can u pls take it to private messaging

 

[Fatman LOU]

My wife is Asian and eats rice probably 3 times a day. You would think with all that carbo's she would be a whale.
5'2 120 lbs soaking wet . I guess it's in her genes geared to burn it .

 

[didshereallysaythat]

I didn't mean stop counting calories because it's a pain in the ass. Easy enough to download an app that will count them for you. I meant stop counting calories cause you know the conventional thinking concerning calorie counting is not based in reality. This conventional thinking never took into account the type food being taken in and the fact the body digests different types of food and macros differently and different types food also have a very different effect on insulin. Some food is also just more satiating which is going to help anyone eat less while other food is just far more likely to be stored as fat and cause more hunger.

I did read your previous post and certainly don't want to attack what has obviously worked well for you at this point. It is obviously a better diet than the American standard with more thought put into it. Just a couple exceptions I would note. While I would agree lots of lean meat and vegetables (mostly green leafy) are a good thing, I'd say a lot of fruit is not. Fructose is digested differently than other food in the body. It goes straight to the liver and only a small amount can be taken in before being stored as fat. I think fruits have been talked up more than they should ever have been as most are very high in this sugar that is more likely to be stored as fat. Would make an exception for the keto super food, avocado, which is much higher in healthy fats and fiber than any net carbs. Conventional thinking would have people reach for a sugar filled banana in search for their potassium while the much healthier alternative would be the avocado which contains a tiny fraction of the carbs and even much more of the potassium. Not saying fruits need be avoided altogether, but they should certainly be limited to about 1 serving a day with the more sugar filled ones being avoided more often than not. Only other exception I saw from that post would be the whole grains. Would make sense to think of whole grains being a healthier option than refined grains but the whole grains are not so whole and still bring lots of carbs, whereas the FDA says grain that is 51% whole can be called whole grain. So, still, whole grains are more processed than they should be and something I see that should be severely limited if not avoided altogether.

Still, congrats on your gains and success with what you've been doing. Just providing some more food for thought.

It is noted that it is easy to lose weight on keto because of a lot of the things you are mentioning. Just understand that you actually are in a calorie deficit whether you are counting the calories or not. The only problem I have with the keto diet is that it's hard for most people to stick with it as a lifestyle. That said though, all diets have high relapse rates. It's above 90%

You also have to keep in mind that everyone is different. People have food sensitivities. People that are lactose or cheese intolerances would have a harder time on keto. My sister can not eat butter and oil. I can not eat a lot of grains and flax or I get diarrhea. If I go to low on carbs though, I get sluggish. Thin people that have trouble putting on muscle need more carbs. Where a person that naturally has more fat can benefit from reduced carbs.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

My wife is Asian and eats rice probably 3 times a day. You would think with all that carbo's she would be a whale.
5'2 120 lbs soaking wet . I guess it's in her genes geared to burn it .

Rice and oatmeal when eaten by themselves are extremely healthy.

 

[Warrior Spirit]

It is noted that it is easy to lose weight on keto because of a lot of the things you are mentioning. Just understand that you actually are in a calorie deficit whether you are counting the calories or not. The only problem I have with the keto diet is that it's hard for most people to stick with it as a lifestyle. That said though, all diets have high relapse rates. It's above 90%

You also have to keep in mind that everyone is different. People have food sensitivities. People that are lactose or cheese intolerances would have a harder time on keto. My sister can not eat butter and oil. I can not eat a lot of grains and flax or I get diarrhea. If I go to low on carbs though, I get sluggish. Thin people that have trouble putting on muscle need more carbs. Where a person that naturally has more fat can benefit from reduced carbs.

I would not say I've been in a calorie deficit. Since starting keto, I've found I can eat more than I had before without gaining weight. I think that's due to the fact that keto/IF actually normalizes the metabolism whereas people who calorie restrict and stay with carbs wreck their metabolism.

Started keto 9 months ago. Calorie restricted for first 4 or 5 weeks, lost all the weight I felt I needed to and a little more so stopped calorie restricting right there. Did some experimenting with calorie counting for a bit after that. Person of my size would normally get 2400-2800 calories to maintain. I go over that way more often than not and haven't gained anything back. Keto is not so much a diet as it is a different lifestyle. Remember, it was first invented as a medical procedure to treat certain disease. It works well in losing weight when you're overweight cause it normalizes the body and its hormones.

Of course people have food sensitivities and gluten, as you mention, is a common one. Remember, keto and most low carb diets rule out grains anyway. Dairy is not required for keto either. I could go weeks without cheese and easily switched to non-dairy milk like Almond milk and Coconut milk. A lot of people on keto go dairy free at the same time. And many, even most, who do have problems with dairy don't have problems with real butter and/or ghee. Never heard of anyone who couldn't have any oil at all, that would take a lot of food off the table no matter what diet you were on.

When you reduce carbs, you do get sluggish. That is normal. When starting keto, you get to that point when your body has drained all the carbs and switching to using fat as its main energy source. This is the point you do become sluggish and the keto flu is likely to come on. It's also the one time those BHBs Silence was speaking of before could help both save one from those keto flu symptoms and speed up the process of getting yourself fat adapted while also providing an energy boost.

The beauty of keto is it targets fat not muscle. And if you go to any of the many youtube channels that advocate keto, you'll have no trouble finding those body builder types who have no difficulty at all building muscle while following keto. Collagen has also become a popular supplement in the keto world. It's been proven to help maintain muscle even as we age which is when muscles are quickest to break down.

 

[didshereallysaythat]

I would not say I've been in a calorie deficit. Since starting keto, I've found I can eat more than I had before without gaining weight. I think that's due to the fact that keto/IF actually normalizes the metabolism whereas people who calorie restrict and stay with carbs wreck their metabolism.

Started keto 9 months ago. Calorie restricted for first 4 or 5 weeks, lost all the weight I felt I needed to and a little more so stopped calorie restricting right there. Did some experimenting with calorie counting for a bit after that. Person of my size would normally get 2400-2800 calories to maintain. I go over that way more often than not and haven't gained anything back. Keto is not so much a diet as it is a different lifestyle. Remember, it was first invented as a medical procedure to treat certain disease. It works well in losing weight when you're overweight cause it normalizes the body and its hormones.

Of course people have food sensitivities and gluten, as you mention, is a common one. Remember, keto and most low carb diets rule out grains anyway. Dairy is not required for keto either. I could go weeks without cheese and easily switched to non-dairy milk like Almond milk and Coconut milk. A lot of people on keto go dairy free at the same time. And many, even most, who do have problems with dairy don't have problems with real butter and/or ghee. Never heard of anyone who couldn't have any oil at all, that would take a lot of food off the table no matter what diet you were on.

When you reduce carbs, you do get sluggish. That is normal. When starting keto, you get to that point when your body has drained all the carbs and switching to using fat as its main energy source. This is the point you do become sluggish and the keto flu is likely to come on. It's also the one time those BHBs Silence was speaking of before could help both save one from those keto flu symptoms and speed up the process of getting yourself fat adapted while also providing an energy boost.

The beauty of keto is it targets fat not muscle. And if you go to any of the many youtube channels that advocate keto, you'll have no trouble finding those body builder types who have no difficulty at all building muscle while following keto. Collagen has also become a popular supplement in the keto world. It's been proven to help maintain muscle even as we age which is when muscles are quickest to break down.

You have to realize that an increased metabolism is the other half of the equation when I say "calorie deficit". If you eat 2,000 calories and you burn 2,100 you are in a calorie deficit. If you eat 3,000 calories and you burn 3,100 you are in a calorie deficit.

My sister is a weird one. She lives 2 states away from me so I only take what she says. She might be getting problems because of the types of foods with the oil like fries for all I know. I just know she is very picky with her diet whenever I see her and how things are cooked.

Keto works. There is no question. It's a compliance issue though that I think makes it hard for a lot of people to stick to. I am sure it would have worked for me if I stuck with it. Luckily, what I do works too. One thing with me... if I don't count my calories, I will see candies around the office like bite size reeses and have the mindset of "ok, just one". Which by the end of the day turns into 5 which might be 100 calories of pure sugar. If I count it, it's in writing and it's official. Part of it is a mindset that works for me.