Not surprisingly, Bulls out of Melo sweepstakes

[RamiTheBullsFan]

How does Melo not make you a title contender?


Let me ask something. What are the Bulls really missing?
Answer: A Go to guy down the stretch. AKA a finisher. The Elite teams have a guy like that. If the Bulls were to get Melo, They'd have one.

Rose has all of the potential in the world. I don't see why Rose cannot be a #1 scoring option and a PG. He's 21 right now... by the time he's 23 or 24, he might easily be the guy who should be closing games for Chicago.

He's like a less-speedy, much more athletic, less turnover-prone version of Allen Iverson, without some of the defensive skills and shooting-range... If he gets those two things down... he might average 30 points-per-game in the NBA someday.

I'd rather see the Bulls build a championship team around young big men and wing players than to bring in a guy like Melo now - who may stunt Rose's growth as a leader, or even as a player.

And right now, the Bulls are way, way better than Miami at the C and PG positions. They also are way better than Miami at rebounding. Do the Bulls really want to lose those 2 clear advantages they have over a scary team - in the form of the James/Wade/Bosh Heat?

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Just to make myself clear... I actually don't think the Bulls are out of the 'Melo sweepstakes. It may not be very likely, but there's still a chance.

 

[TheStig]

Rose has all of the potential in the world. I don't see why Rose cannot be a #1 scoring option and a PG. He's 21 right now... by the time he's 23 or 24, he might easily be the guy who should be closing games for Chicago.

He's like a less-speedy, much more athletic, less turnover-prone version of Allen Iverson, without some of the defensive skills and shooting-range... If he gets those two things down... he might average 30 points-per-game in the NBA someday.

I'd rather see the Bulls build a championship team around young big men and wing players than to bring in a guy like Melo now - who may stunt Rose's growth as a leader, or even as a player.

And right now, the Bulls are way, way better than Miami at the C and PG positions. They also are way better than Miami at rebounding. Do the Bulls really want to lose those 2 clear advantages they have over a scary team - in the form of the James/Wade/Bosh Heat?

I can guarntee you that Rose will never average 30ppg. And if he can't work with other players like Melo, he is going to become AI in a bad way. Luckily Rose doesn't have the mindset you want him too.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I can guarntee you that Rose will never average 30ppg. And if he can't work with other players like Melo, he is going to become AI in a bad way. Luckily Rose doesn't have the mindset you want him too.

30 points would be his height as a scorer, in my opinion. He might turn into a 12-assist guy too... it's very possible.

Realistically... I see him as a 22-25 point scorer, at a high FG%, and averaging 10 assists in his best season.

 

[Lefty]

30 points would be his height as a scorer, in my opinion. He might turn into a 12-assist guy too... it's very possible.

Realistically... I see him as a 22-25 point scorer, at a high FG%, and averaging 10 assists in his best season.

So, in other words, probably the second-best player on a championship team, which is what people have realized him as for awhile now :dunno:

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

So, in other words, probably the second-best player on a championship team, which is what people have realized him as for awhile now :dunno:

Chauncey Billups or Rip Hamilton was the best player on Detroit's championship team. Isiah Thomas was in 1989 and 1990. Even Tim Duncan is a pretty good example of a guy who wasn't always a 1st scoring option... yet the Spurs won 4 titles with him as the best player.

If the Bulls can build a balanced offense around Derrick Rose, and become a great defensive team, then the Bulls will have a title contending team for years to come - if Derrick Rose improves his shooting-range, increases his FT attempts, and improves his defending.

I believe Rose has more up-side than any of those Detroit guards I mentioned... and maybe more up-side than Tim Duncan too.

 

[TheStig]

30 points would be his height as a scorer, in my opinion. He might turn into a 12-assist guy too... it's very possible.

Realistically... I see him as a 22-25 point scorer, at a high FG%, and averaging 10 assists in his best season.

Those are Chris Paul numbers. Ironically the hornets of old were built similar to us. And they didn't win anything. In this league, you go for elite players first and then guys like Noah.

 

[FirstTimer]

Rose has all of the potential in the world. I don't see why Rose cannot be a #1 scoring option and a PG. He's 21 right now... by the time he's 23 or 24, he might easily be the guy who should be closing games for Chicago.

He's like a less-speedy, much more athletic, less turnover-prone version of Allen Iverson, without some of the defensive skills and shooting-range... If he gets those two things down... he might average 30 points-per-game in the NBA someday.

I'd rather see the Bulls build a championship team around young big men and wing players than to bring in a guy like Melo now - who may stunt Rose's growth as a leader, or even as a player.

And right now, the Bulls are way, way better than Miami at the C and PG positions. They also are way better than Miami at rebounding. Do the Bulls really want to lose those 2 clear advantages they have over a scary team - in the form of the James/Wade/Bosh Heat?

Rose will NEVER average 30 a game. I promise you that. Yeah we have the edge on Miami at PG but at Center not so much. Sure we have Noah...but then behind him we have nothing. The sum of Miami's centers and their depth gives them edge here. Plus they pretty much bludgeon us at every other position on the floor.

Can we also please quit with the Melo stunting Rose's development as a player? For ****'s sake. Having Melo on the team would actually be the perfect compliment to Rose at the point. Rose is going to keep getting better as a player at the same rate whether Melo is here or not. Adding Melo to Rose as he is improving is a no brainer.

And to answer your question. Yes. If we have to give up Noah to get Carmelo freaking Anthony we do it. In a second. Then worry about finding some garbage man center who can play defense and rebound. That's an easier guy to find than a dominating SF who scores 28 PPG.

I mean seriously. Was that a serious question?

Chauncey Billups or Rip Hamilton was the best player on Detroit's championship team.

The Detroit Pistons were the exception to the rule and beat an imploding Lakers team.

Isiah Thomas was in 1989 and 1990.

And he's a HOF PG.. Rose isn't a HOF'er so the comparison doesn't hold.

Even Tim Duncan is a pretty good example of a guy who wasn't always a 1st scoring option... yet the Spurs won 4 titles with him as the best player.

The entire Spurs offense ran/runs through Tim Duncan. He's the greatest PF of all time. In all 4 of the Spurs championship seasons Duncan was the teams leading scorer.

If the Bulls can build a balanced offense around Derrick Rose, and become a great defensive team, then the Bulls will have a title contending team for years to come - if Derrick Rose improves his shooting-range, increases his FT attempts, and improves his defending.

I believe Rose has more up-side than any of those Detroit guards I mentioned... and maybe more up-side than Tim Duncan too.

Back away from the Kool Aid.

Tim Duncan is the best power forward of all time. He's quite possibly one of the 10 best players ever. I love Derrick Rose as a player....but more upside than Duncan? Come on.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Duncan was never as good as Karl Malone. The top 4 PF's are all rather interchangeable. But if I had to rank them: (1) Malone (2) Duncan (3) Barkley (4) Garnett - who I'd actually say was better than Duncan in the prime of his career.

Sure, Isiah was a HOFer. But Rose is a young guy. He has the capability of winning an MVP award or two. His athleticism for his size is un-matched in NBA history in terms of point guards... who's to say that Rose will never become a HOF player?

In terms of Miami... they will have Joel Anthony, Zydrumas Ilgauskas, and Jamaal Magloire at C. The Bulls have Joakim Noah and Kurt Thomas. I'll take our 5 well before Miami's. I'm not saying I wouldn't give him away for Melo. But there's definitely an advantage there.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Those are Chris Paul numbers. Ironically the hornets of old were built similar to us. And they didn't win anything. In this league, you go for elite players first and then guys like Noah.

As great as Chris Paul is... (and I say he is as good as Isiah was - just about)... I believe Derrick Rose has something that he doesn't; a chance to become apart of the debate for the best PG of all-time with Magic Johnson. And seperate himself from the Stockton/Payton/Paul/Thomas/Kidd/Nash category.

If he is getting "Chris Paul numbers" those numbers will come easier for Rose than it did Paul, if Rose ever gets on par with CP3's skill level.

I say Rose may end up being a 25+ and 11 guy. He may end up as the best shot-blocking PG of all-time, when it's said and done, too. Rose will keep shooting at an at least decent percentage. I'd love Melo, but maybe the Bulls will still find a way to build a championship core around Rose and Boozer (and maybe even Noah).

 

[TheStig]

As great as Chris Paul is... (and I say he is as good as Isiah was - just about)... I believe Derrick Rose has something that he doesn't; a chance to become apart of the debate for the best PG of all-time with Magic Johnson. And seperate himself from the Stockton/Payton/Paul/Thomas/Kidd/Nash category.

If he is getting "Chris Paul numbers" those numbers will come easier for Rose than it did Paul, if Rose ever gets on par with CP3's skill level.

I say Rose may end up being a 25+ and 11 guy. He may end up as the best shot-blocking PG of all-time, when it's said and done, too. Rose will keep shooting at an at least decent percentage. I'd love Melo, but maybe the Bulls will still find a way to build a championship core around Rose and Boozer (and maybe even Noah).

But thats the point, its not that easy. Paul, West and Chandler are pretty much equivlent to Rose, Boozer and Noah. Paul is already a top 5 player. This teams ceiling is the conference finals. Rose, Melo and Boozer have the makings of a title team.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

But thats the point, its not that easy. Paul, West and Chandler are pretty much equivlent to Rose, Boozer and Noah. Paul is already a top 5 player. This teams ceiling is the conference finals. Rose, Melo and Boozer have the makings of a title team.

I don't deny that Melo for Noah and Deng could pay off in a huge way. All I'm saying is don't give up hope if it doesn't happen, because there are other means to that end (end being a championship). I say Rose+Boozer+Noah is a clearly better version of Paul+West+Chandler. Boozer is definitely better than West, and Noah is better than Chandler ever was - with tons more skills. Rose can definitely end up better than CP3, too.

 

[TheStig]

I don't deny that Melo for Noah and Deng could pay off in a huge way. All I'm saying is don't give up hope if it doesn't happen, because there are other means to that end (end being a championship). I say Rose+Boozer+Noah is a clearly better version of Paul+West+Chandler. Boozer is definitely better than West, and Noah is better than Chandler ever was - with tons more skills. Rose can definitely end up better than CP3, too.

I won't lose hope. I will watch the games and cheer for the team but the fact we don't offer it is ridiculous. If Denver didn't take it, I'd understand but us not putting it out there is stupid if it can actually get it done.

I also don't know what you are expecting out of Boozer and Noah. Tyson put up 11.8ppg and 11.7rpg on 62.3% shooting with a block and David West put up 20.6, 8.9 and 1.3 on 48.3% fg. Noah hasn't done better than that and really won't get over 12 and 12. Boozer while a better rebounder than west has never averaged more than half a point per game more. I don't see a vastly greater group. Noah will be about as good as Chandler was that year on a lower efficency with better passing and boozer will be a bit better rebounding but about teh same points.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I won't lose hope. I will watch the games and cheer for the team but the fact we don't offer it is ridiculous. If Denver didn't take it, I'd understand but us not putting it out there is stupid if it can actually get it done.

I also don't know what you are expecting out of Boozer and Noah. Tyson put up 11.8ppg and 11.7rpg on 62.3% shooting with a block and David West put up 20.6, 8.9 and 1.3 on 48.3% fg. Noah hasn't done better than that and really won't get over 12 and 12. Boozer while a better rebounder than west has never averaged more than half a point per game more. I don't see a vastly greater group. Noah will be about as good as Chandler was that year on a lower efficency with better passing and boozer will be a bit better rebounding but about teh same points.

Well, it's just that I feel Boozer demands more attention than David West does in the low-block, because of his power down there. Boozer is a better passer too. Defensive-wise, you have a rock in Boozer, but with West you have a guy with more skills on D, but not the anchor that Boozer is.

Noah is just as good of a rebounder as Tyson was. Noah has so, so, so much more weapons on offense that Tys lacked. The only thing Tys had over Noah was that he was taller and a little more athletic. Otherwise, I'd say Noah is better across the board.

CP3 > Rose, right now... but I could see that changing. Rose has tons of work to do to expand his game. But he already demands more attention from defenses when you isolate him.

 

[TheStig]

Well, it's just that I feel Boozer demands more attention than David West does in the low-block, because of his power down there. Boozer is a better passer too. Defensive-wise, you have a rock in Boozer, but with West you have a guy with more skills on D, but not the anchor that Boozer is.

Noah is just as good of a rebounder as Tyson was. Noah has so, so, so much more weapons on offense that Tys lacked. The only thing Tys had over Noah was that he was taller and a little more athletic. Otherwise, I'd say Noah is better across the board.

CP3 > Rose, right now... but I could see that changing. Rose has tons of work to do to expand his game. But he already demands more attention from defenses when you isolate him.

Boozer is better down low but West has some range. That helps a lot. Also, Boozer isn't going to be getting better. He has peaked, so as the years go on, that gap is gonna close.

I like Noah more. TC was basically put backs and dunks but again, Noah isn't gonna be better than 12 and 12 so I think it ends up being a tie. Chandler also was a better man defender, he did a pretty good job on Duncan in those playoffs.

Rose is never gonna be that much better than Paul. Even if he scores a couple more points, he isn't going to have 11apg. Paul really has great court vision, Rose doesn't.

Again, I just see them possibly being marginably better. Not significantly enough.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Boozer is better down low but West has some range. That helps a lot. Also, Boozer isn't going to be getting better. He has peaked, so as the years go on, that gap is gonna close.

I like Noah more. TC was basically put backs and dunks but again, Noah isn't gonna be better than 12 and 12 so I think it ends up being a tie. Chandler also was a better man defender, he did a pretty good job on Duncan in those playoffs.

Rose is never gonna be that much better than Paul. Even if he scores a couple more points, he isn't going to have 11apg. Paul really has great court vision, Rose doesn't.

Again, I just see them possibly being marginably better. Not significantly enough.

Boozer and West sort of have decent mid-range jumpers, but I see all what you are saying. Boozer has about 3 good years left at a high level.

I think that Noah is definitely better than Tyson, and has a lot more skill.. but yeah. Noah doesn't jump out from Tys very far ahead in my book either.

Rose may not have better court vision than Chris Paul, but who does? - hah. I think he could get 11 assists because he does have very good court vision himself. If Rose becomes a threat in the passing lanes... expect huge results in terms of assists. His ability to finish around the rim is just so far ahead of all the other PGs that might create more assists as he improves his shooting range. He would demand double and triple teams if he had that automatic three-point stroke.

Really... I sort of would like to see a great young big man come in to be Rose's sling-shot to a title. Boozer is awesome... but once he's gone... he's gone. I wish the Bulls had a Blake Griffin type of player to complement Rose... and work as a duo.

 

[TheStig]

Boozer and West sort of have decent mid-range jumpers, but I see all what you are saying. Boozer has about 3 good years left at a high level.

I think that Noah is definitely better than Tyson, and has a lot more skill.. but yeah. Noah doesn't jump out from Tys very far ahead in my book either.

Rose may not have better court vision than Chris Paul, but who does? - hah. I think he could get 11 assists because he does have very good court vision himself. If Rose becomes a threat in the passing lanes... expect huge results in terms of assists. His ability to finish around the rim is just so far ahead of all the other PGs that might create more assists as he improves his shooting range. He would demand double and triple teams if he had that automatic three-point stroke.

Really... I sort of would like to see a great young big man come in to be Rose's sling-shot to a title. Boozer is awesome... but once he's gone... he's gone. I wish the Bulls had a Blake Griffin type of player to complement Rose... and work as a duo.

Noah is better because of his intangibles. I could never picture TC stealing the ball, dribbling all the way down the court and dunking. TC might come up with a steal or block that was key but he never had the ball handling or passing. So in that essence he is better and more diverse.

I could never see Rose leading the league in assists like Paul is consistently up there. Rose is much more of a scorer but Paul is clearly a better creator and defender. He is a classic point guard. Rose is a scorer primarly. And evenif he does put up 25ppg, he still likely won't have the defense or passing. Chris Paul is gonna be a hall of famer. Rose isn't there yet.

 

[FirstTimer]

Duncan was never as good as Karl Malone.

Just no.

That's laughable.

Every greatest power forward list starts and ends with Duncan. Duncan is perhaps the most fundamentally sound and efficient player the NBA has ever seen. He has more rings, the same number of MVP's and was widely seen as a better defender.

If you want to put Malone 1st, go ahead, but either way my point is still proven. It's beyond homerrific to say Rose has more upside the best(or second best) power forward ever. That's flat out stupid.

The top 4 PF's are all rather interchangeable. But if I had to rank them: (1) Malone (2) Duncan (3) Barkley (4) Garnett - who I'd actually say was better than Duncan in the prime of his career.

:smh:

Now we are just getting stupid.

Tim Duncan in most any NBA writers minds is the greatest PF of all time walking away. Hell ESPN took a poll of numerous writers back in 2005 and Duncan won in a land slide.

But anyways....

My point is again made. Rose will not be one of the top 4 PG's of all-time. To say he has more upside than Duncan is Special person.

Sure, Isiah was a HOFer. But Rose is a young guy. He has the capability of winning an MVP award or two. His athleticism for his size is un-matched in NBA history in terms of point guards... who's to say that Rose will never become a HOF player?

Me.

And you missed the point....entirely. Rose isn't a HOF player now...and hasn't shown himself to be one. Sure he could turn into one..but so could anyone. Zeke was already going into the HOF by the time he won those rings. Zeke was established. So citing Zeke, who was already a HOF'er, by the time he won those rings as a reason Rose could lead the Bulls to one is a massive leap and still not a valid reason to not go after Melo....because if you really believe Rose is that good then you would want Melo to come here so you'd have possibly two HOF'ers playing on the same team. Not wanting Melo because Rose might be a HOF'er someday and Zeke lead the Pistons to a title over 20 years ago is ridiculously horrible logic.

In terms of Miami... they will have Joel Anthony, Zydrumas Ilgauskas, and Jamaal Magloire at C. The Bulls have Joakim Noah and Kurt Thomas. I'll take our 5 well before Miami's. I'm not saying I wouldn't give him away for Melo. But there's definitely an advantage there.

Kurt Thomas is old and bad.

I'll take Miami's four guys(Juwan Howard will play some center too) over our two guys in a heart beat. Noah is the best player of the bunch but the drop off to Kurt Thomas is astoundingly huge. Miami's best guy is average but there's really not a ton of drop off and it's more even.

We have a better starting center but we have zero depth at the position. Miami will wear us the **** out at center in a 7 game series anyways so I don't see that as a "win" position so trading Noah to get Melo is a no brainer.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I really don't want to get into the TD/KG or TD/Malone debate... I'll just say that all 4 are very interchangeable. They are all great PFs and... that's all I'll say.

And not just "any" player can end up a HOFer. We all knew that Mario Chalmers was never going to be one when he came into the league. Just answer one question for me - What PG since...ever...have you seen with better ability when it comes to finishing around the rim? - other than Derrick Rose.

If Juwan Howard or Jamaal Magloire ever get on the floor for Miami, I will throw a parade. I doubt they will ever play a meaningful minute with the Heat... Ilgauskas and Anthony is all they have at the C position. And if they use Bosh and Haslem as their 4-5 enough times against the Bulls... I may just throw another parade.

 

[FirstTimer]

And not just "any" player can end up a HOFer.

Hypothetically...yes any player can become a HOF'er. There's no predetermined qualifier for becoming a HOF'er when you enter the league. People can make guesses, assumptions etc but any player who plays in the league can become one. Most don't.

It's not that difficult of a concept to grasp.

Just answer one question for me - What PG since...ever...have you seen with better ability when it comes to finishing around the rim? - other than Derrick Rose.

Tony Parker has lead/finished near the top of the NBA in points in the paint.
Guys like Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Mark Jackson, Zeke, Magic, etc were all amazing finishers around the rim. Rose is an athletic freak compared to them and is an amazing finisher himself but he's not leaps and bounds ahead of guys I have seen before..or some guys that are still playing.

If Juwan Howard or Jamaal Magloire ever get on the floor for Miami, I will throw a parade. I doubt they will ever play a meaningful minute with the Heat... Ilgauskas and Anthony is all they have at the C position. And if they use Bosh and Haslem as their 4-5 enough times against the Bulls... I may just throw another parade.

Bosh and Haslem>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kurt Thomas.

Juwan Howard started nearly 30 games last season. Push come to shove the Heat have great depth in the front court. The Bulls can't match it. The Heat can and will wear us the **** out down low.

Bosh/Haslem/Howard/Anthony/Big Z/Magloire/>>Noah/Boozer/Gibson/Thomas/Asik