Not surprisingly, Bulls out of Melo sweepstakes

Rush

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So Boozer's v. Bosh's MPG and the study that proves that scoring is way more valuable than rebounding are just happenstance things that are open to subjective interpretation? Something about that doesn't sound right.......

In an argument about who is statistically more valuable to the team and "better"....it works.

In a "who does one person prefer over another" it holds absolutely no bearing over one's opinion.
 

TheStig

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That Juwan Howard is the better player.







Then please go back and read Adrian Wojo's article after it all went down. ...........

PLEASE.




Yes because I'm sure the Heat won't counter with a sub of their own..... I mean really? You don't think the Heat would notice Taj playing the 5 and counter with Haslem or Bosh at the 5? REALLY?


So it's not a wash....and I was comparing the depth at the two positions so arguing about Bosh maybe only being "slightly" better than Boozer misses the entire point.




Kurt Thomas is our back up center. He will be playing more than 4-6 minutes per game.


:facepalm:

So Taj is backing up both post positions? That makes our depth worse. The Bulls basically filled out their post roster than with Kurt Thomas...who apparently won't play and Omer Asik...who has never played.

Does anyone here actually watch basketball?




Ok.

Please quit watching basketball, playing basketball, discussing basketball, and writing about basketball.

People wonder why the Chicago fan base is laughed at and taken as a complete joke and responses like this are why.

Rest of NBA fanbase: I'll give you a SF who is just entering his prime and is one of the Top 5-10 players in the league and averages 28ppg 6rpg and 3apg for your oft injured overpaid SF and your center who averages 11ppg and 11rpg.

Bulls fan base: Uhhhhhh.....I don't know....let me think...


Rest of NBA Fan Base: :facepalm: :obama::obama::obama::obama::obama::obama:


Ding...........................

Bosh is arguably the better player right now. He's going to be the better player in the future so why the hell would you not take Bosh?

Juwan Howard is not the better player anymore. They are pretty much equal.

Post the article, I really don't remember seeing it. And I am pretty sure he isn't going to be playing most of his minutes at pg but I could be wrong.

There are only a certain amount of minutes Bosh and Haslem can play. So there will be mismatches that we can take advantage of.

Kurt Thomas also won't be seeing a lot of minutes. Most teams play 3 guys big minutes. Look at the lakers, bynum, gasol and odom played most of their front court minutes. Thomas will mainly play with injuries or foul trobule.
 

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Juwan Howard is not the better player anymore. They are pretty much equal.

Post the article, I really don't remember seeing it. And I am pretty sure he isn't going to be playing most of his minutes at pg but I could be wrong.

You are.

Use google.

In February 2006, during All-Star weekend, LeBron James , - 07.19.10 - SI Vault

mea culpa. it wasn't Wojo....but still....here ya go.

In February 2006, during All-Star weekend, LeBron James , - 07.19.10 - SI Vault

PART I: THE ANNOUNCEMENT

Last week the world's most talented basketball star abandoned the story line that could have culminated with him becoming the most triumphant and beloved player of his age: Born and raised in nearby Akron, he was delivered upon the Cavaliers like a basketball Moses to lead the depressed region of northeast Ohio to the promised land. Now it turns out he wanted no part of that. He expressed no kinship to his people, and he didn't want to be the Man. Instead he chose the less stressful path of sharing the burdens of leadership with fellow free agents Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, who already had committed to the Heat when James announced he was joining them Thursday during a live broadcast of The Decision, the disastrous ESPN infomercial that revealed that James wasn't the lovable guy that his crossover appearances on Nike ads or Saturday Night Live had made him out to be.

All of the upside was gone, leaving only a 25-year-old small forward who after seven hype-filled seasons had failed to produce a championship; who admitted that he didn't have the grace to personally tell his former team's owner that he was leaving; and who had kept his announcement secret because this spectacle was ultimately more important to him than his relationships with the fans he was abandoning in Ohio. Asked how James should have managed his departure, Cavs majority owner Dan Gilbert said, "He would have come in at least a day before and had face-to-face meetings with us. He would have told us what the reasons were and given us the opportunity to make one last argument or move or whatever it might take, even if there was nothing we could do. He should have held a news conference in downtown Cleveland to face the music like a man, let people ask the questions, give his reasons and express gratitude to all of the people in Cleveland who have supported him, knowing this is a blue-collar town and they were going to take it hard.

"There is a difference between Cleveland being deeply disappointed in the decision—which we are—and the feeling of betrayal that only came from his part in the process and the way he communicated it to the world. He crossed the line from disappointment to betrayal."

Teams are occasionally duplicitous in their dealings with players, so should James have owed the Cavs an explanation? The answer is yes, because of how much his relationship with his local team benefited him and Cleveland. "I feel awful that I'm leaving," James admitted as he sat hunched and apprehensive in a director's chair upon a small raised stage, as if he realized he was rendering the only place he's ever lived uninhabitable with his own version of the BP oil spill. Within two hours Gilbert was recklessly ceding the high ground by ripping "our former hero" for his "narcissistic, self-promotional" display. "You simply don't deserve this kind of cowardly betrayal," wrote Gilbert in an open letter to Cleveland fans.

According to one of his marketing advisers, James did not hold a farewell news conference in Cleveland because he feared for his safety once word got out that he was leaving. But James's tortuous TV appearance, combined with Gilbert's equally regrettable response, only served to enrage the city. That night fans were seen burning JAMES JERSEYS and WITNESS T-shirts on sidewalks and throwing rocks at his 10-story Nike billboard downtown. By Saturday work crews were unpeeling the billboard, strip by strip, while in the Cavs' nearby gift shop all of the LeBron paraphernalia had been removed like mementos of Lenin in the new Russia. "I had this sick sense inside," former Browns quarterback Bernie Kosar, a native of suburban Youngstown, told The Plain-Dealer's Terry Pluto. "I really thought that as an athlete, your ultimate goal would be to win a title for your hometown team. That's what drove me when I was with the Browns. I wanted to finish what I started."


PART II: THE MAN

There was something deeper in James's decision that set off negative reactions throughout the league. Not only had he forgotten where he came from, but the reigning two-time MVP seemed to be accepting a lesser station alongside Wade, the 6'4" shooting guard who had led Miami to the 2005--06 championship, and Bosh, the 6'10" All-Star power forward who spent the first seven years of his career with the Raptors. "I was surprised that he went [to Miami]," said Orlando G.M. Otis Smith. "I thought he was more of a competitor. The great ones usually stay in one location."

A Western Conference G.M. added, "It sparks a huge debate about how you determine greatness. We put him on this pedestal and we believed he was fulfilling it—and now we're idiots for believing in him. Maybe at his core he isn't a very confident guy."

Up to the moment of his revelation James, who entered the league to unparalleled hype in 2003, had appeared as comfortable with his celebrity as a young Jordan or Julius Erving. He carried himself with prodigious maturity while winning eight postseason series—twice as many as the Cavs had won in the previous 35 years—which made his obliviousness during and after his strained televised farewell all the more surprising. "It is a tough decision because I know how loyal I am," he said on the air on Thursday. The following night he joined Wade and Bosh to say hello to 13,000 Heat fans, as if their frenzied screams absolved James of any responsibility he might have felt to his home state. "The [Heat] organization is a close-knit group," he told his new audience. "It's all about family, and that's what I'm all about." Easy come, easy go.

Clearly James couldn't see why he had turned off so many believers. Hadn't he, Wade and Bosh each sacrificed at least $15 million over the lifetime of his contract in order to play together in Miami? (Though the difference in real money for James, thanks to the absence of state income tax in Florida, was closer to $6 million.) Wasn't James putting the pursuit of championships ahead of his individual stats, potentially loosening his hold on the MVP trophy? Hadn't profits from The Decision resulted in a contribution of more than $2.5 million to the Boys & Girls Clubs of America?

Until the stain of The Decision is washed away and he has proved the sacrifices to be championship-worthy, however, James has surrendered the benefit of the doubt. "If I was 25 I would try to win it by myself," said Charles Barkley on NBA TV. "This definitely hurts LeBron. When you are 25 you shouldn't be trying to piggyback on other people."


PART III: THE SEA CHANGE

Think back to the NBA's golden era when Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Isiah Thomas were winning a combined 10 championships from 1979 to '90. Would those three rivals ever have wanted to join forces? They were more interested in beating each other than in deferring to one another.

"I came of age as commissioner when the Lakers and Celtics each had a Hall of Fame team," says David Stern of the Lakers of Magic, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy and Bob McAdoo, and the Celtics of Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson and Bill Walton. But those rosters were assembled over time by management, while this trio has come together as the result of a cabal by the players themselves. This AAU-ization of the NBA is the culmination of three decades of players gaining more and more power, a movement that started with the Magic-Bird era. Next summer the commissioner may, like Dr. Frankenstein, have to kill off the monster he created when he presides over labor negotiations that are expected to result in a lockout. "It's safe to say that if contracts are shorter and guarantees are less, we may see opportunities for this to actually increase," says Stern, noting that players in the next system may become free agents more often. "But the [next] collective bargaining agreement is going to be focused solely on sustainable business models, in a context where we encourage teams within the rules to compete with each other for talent as hard and tenaciously as they possibly can."

Mavericks owner Mark Cuban wants the league to reconsider its enforcement of tampering rules as it applies to players, with the inference that Wade helped lure James and Bosh to Miami while they were still under contract. "We're not going to become the thought police, the speech police, the private-meeting police," said Stern, who has received no formal complaints from the Cavs or the Raptors. "That said, if they are directed by their teams [to recruit other players], that would be a different situation."

Collusion among players is a common and unstoppable practice. The NBA salary cap has grown by 1,600% since its original 1984 threshold of $3.6 million per team, which has created a chumminess among the elite players.

And never has a group of players exerted as much power as James, Bosh and Wade, all chosen among the top five of the 2003 draft. In 2006 James persuaded Wade and Bosh to join him in agreeing to three-year contract extensions (with a fourth-year option) that would make them free agents this summer to maximize their bargaining power before the collective bargaining agreement expires in 2011. They realized they could thrive together while helping lead the U.S. to the gold medal at the 2008 Olympics, and their bond was deepened further last year when Henry Thomas, who represents Bosh and Wade, joined James's representative, Leon Rose, at CAA Sports.

In the meantime Heat president Pat Riley was plotting what he called "the triple play." It began when he traded Shaquille O'Neal to Phoenix in 2008 to clear cap space and continued as he unloaded long-term contracts and developed relationships with confidants of the 15 All-Stars who were among this summer's class of free agents. One advantage of Riley's intelligence gathering was his understanding—as relayed to him by Wade—that James wanted to become less of a scorer and more of a distributor, and that he looked forward to no longer carrying the offense night after night. "Now the pressure of making every shot or shooting a high percentage for our team to win is not a big deal anymore," says James. "You look at Game 7 of the Finals—Kobe Bryant shot 6 for 24 from the field, and they still won because he knew he had help and guys came through for him."

The Cavaliers have depended on him to score (he's averaged at least 27 points per game over the last six seasons), but what if he never wanted to be the second coming of Jordan? James has long viewed himself as having more in common with Magic than with Michael, and this move enables him to become the Man in a more creative and entertaining way—as the playmaker who pushes the ball in the open floor and delights in watching Wade and Bosh finish what he has started. Riley knew exactly how to sell Miami to James. "LeBron would be Magic and Dwyane would be Kobe and Chris would be Kevin Garnett," said Riley, reciting the pitch he made during the Heat's July 2 presentation to James. "He actually liked that conversation. He lit up and he said that would be great if 'I didn't have to score,' that he could be maybe the first guy since Oscar Robertson to be a triple double guy."

The Heat's meeting with James in the IMG offices in downtown Cleveland lasted close to three hours, and Riley was the star. Riley has seven NBA championship rings, and he has three copies of each—one gold, one silver, one platinum—to go with whatever he may be wearing on a particular day. He tossed the bag of rings on a table for James to look inside. "Like a weapon," as Riley would describe the scene later.
"Hey," said Riley playfully, "try one on."


They had spoken in other settings, and Riley knew he had James's attention.

After also meeting with the Nets, Knicks, Clippers, Cavaliers and Bulls over the first three days of July in Cleveland, James quickly narrowed his final choices to Miami, Cleveland and Chicago. "The process was taken extremely seriously, and it was not predetermined," says Rose. "I can tell you he vacillated after certain meetings. He went back and forth."

Early last week he was leaning toward Miami, but James insists he didn't make a final decision until a heart-to-heart last Thursday morning with his mother, Gloria. Seven ringless years in the NBA had left James hungry to begin winning championships, even at the cost of his legacy. No doubt he found himself recalling the message Riley delivered: "The main thing is the main thing."

The irony of Miami's coup is that Riley, of all people, was so eager to marry three leaders of rival teams—the same Riley who as a coach used to famously scold his own players for fraternizing with opponents. And the trend of tribalism among NBA players was on display again at Carmelo Anthony's wedding to MTV personality LaLa Vazquez last Saturday in New York City. Among the guests were James (who was booed by spurned Knicks fans as he climbed out of his limo) and Hornets point guard Chris Paul, who may have been inspired by Miami's new big three. According to the New York Post, Paul offered a toast suggesting that he, the groom and new Knick Amar'e Stoudemire should form their own power trio in New York.


PART IV: THE FUTURE

Rivals who are hoping the Heat will need time to fill out the roster are making a serious mistake in underestimating Riley. By dumping Michael Beasley and his $5 million salary on the Timberwolves and offering packages of draft picks and $16 million trade exceptions to Toronto and Cleveland to complete sign-and-trade deals for Bosh and James, Riley has freed up a salary slot for swingman Mike Miller while creating room to re-sign big man Udonis Haslem, whose defense-first mind-set and physical play upfront will be indispensable throughout the playoffs next spring. "Not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven," says James of his expectations for titles. "When I say that, I really believe it. I'm about business."

Even if the three win and win big, there will be complaints that they cut corners to their parades. "I guess I'm a purist, but I believe the journey to the championship is really what it's all about," says a former star who is now a league executive, and who asks to remain anonymous because he may try to acquire one of the Heat stars if their partnership fails. "It's the heartache, the ups and downs, the winning 60 games and losing in the playoffs, and then all of a sudden the breakthrough. Winning the championship is more about the journey than it is about getting three or four guys and [saying] let's win because we're so much better than everybody else. It's like if Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain had gotten together and said, 'Let's both play together in Chicago'—what would have been the meaning of that?"

The championships will be hard to come by if James, Wade and Bosh can't learn how to share the rock over the course of more than 100 regular-season and playoff games. After winning the championship in 2008 with his new All-Star threesome of Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, Celtics coach Doc Rivers acknowledged that the experiment might not have succeeded a few years earlier, when each player was still exploring his own potential. But by the time the three united in Boston, each was in his 30s and ready to sacrifice for the team. "I had a group of guys that were very willing to be coached and weren't stuck on who they were," said Rivers two years ago. "I hear guys say they want to win it, but I think what they're really saying is, 'I want to win it as long as I can keep doing what I do.' I had three stars who said they wanted to win and they would change to do it. I don't think you get that a lot."

Gilbert remained skeptical of his former star, accusing James of quitting on the Cavs during the playoffs in each of the past two seasons. "He's going to need to do some deep, deep soul-searching and get an understanding on who he is and if it is important enough to him," Gilbert said on Saturday. "Without that I don't think he'll ever reach his potential from a championship standpoint. It's not anything physical on the outside; he'll have to do some work on the inside to get to the Kobe level, or the Michael Jordan or the Tim Duncan level."

For years Gilbert had dreaded the possibility that James would leave. Now that the day was here, what was he feeling? "It's kind of a relief on the organization," he said, acknowledging that the franchise had made trade after trade with the short-term goal of convincing James to reenlist. "People have to understand this was a Lebron-centric situation," said Gilbert. "We haven't experienced trying to do it the right way, and in a way it's exciting for us to move forward without that kind of weight on us. Because you do start compromising."

Now most of the compromises are going to fall upon James. In one intensive week his profile shifted from NBA darling to a player who has exhausted the public's patience. The last two years' worth of emotional capital that has been invested in speculation about his future is now being held against him like an expensive loan, and the only way he can pay it off is by winning a championship.

There are only a certain amount of minutes Bosh and Haslem can play. So there will be mismatches that we can take advantage of.
No shit sherlock but I would imagine those minutes they can play would involve them not letting the Bulls have Gibson at center and having Big Z trying to guard him. Newsflash..there's also only a certain amount of minutes Gibson can play too.


Kurt Thomas also won't be seeing a lot of minutes.

I didn't say he'd see "a lot". I said he'd be seeing more than 4-6 minutes per game because he is our back up center.
Most teams play 3 guys big minutes. Look at the lakers, bynum, gasol and odom played most of their front court minutes. Thomas will mainly play with injuries or foul trobule.
Well thank God Noah has never been hurt...

:facepalm:
 
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Lefty

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In an argument about who is statistically more valuable to the team and "better"....it works.

In a "who does one person prefer over another" it holds absolutely no bearing over one's opinion.

We're not talking about a "who does one person prefer over another because of the cut of one's jib" or "who has the nicer haircut", we're talking about "what should happen to make the Bulls a contender for an NBA Championship, both now and down the road". If you're reading this thread and coming away thinking "wow, what a heated 'who prefers which and why' argument," then you really should have tried harder in school or something. This has never (not fucking once) been about "well, I like the way this guy plays, etc.", rather, this has always been about "should this be done and will it make the Bulls a better team?" conundrum.

Therefore, this argument was never about opinion. Sure, that's all that some people had to go with, but others had (and still do) indisputable facts that effectively decide the matter in one favor over the other. Thus, to throw oneself against those indisputable facts repeatedly (while at the same time calling them "just opinion") is stupid, dumb, moronic, etc.

It's great that you want to champion the expressing of opinions and preferences, but 1) this was never about preference, it was about deciding (via truth/validation) a matter and 2) no matter how much one prefers two added to two again to equal five, it doesn't make their opinion or preference any less asinine and just flat out stupid.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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The fact that you guys are weighing in Juwan Howard into the equation is a head scatcher...
 

Lefty

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The fact that you guys are weighing in Juwan Howard into the equation is a head scatcher...

:obama::obama::obama::obama::obama::obama:

Now either you're being purposely obtuse or you really are that dense. In the latter case, here we go:

Juwan Howard > Kurt Thomas

at best, Juwan Howard = Kurt Thomas

Now, here's where it gets tricky, so take your time with this part:

Juwan Howard = Miami's third option at the 4 and third (more likely 4th) option at the 5

Kurt Thomas (remember, he's at best equal to Juwan Howard) = the Bulls' backup 5.

Got all that?














































Ok, good.

Because of those truths, we can see that Miami's front court is better, at least as far as depth goes. You're welcome.
 
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RamiTheBullsFan

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Lefty... Juwan Howard isn't going to make one shred of difference in a Bulls-vs-Heat game. And, if it all comes down to Juwan Howard (somehow) I will be stoked that the Bulls are competitive at all against the Heat.

You know, deep down in your heart, that in a Playoff game Juwan Howard will never see any action (and I'm talking 0.00 minutes here), unless there is severe foul trouble, for Miami.

The argument of Thomas, Asik, and Howard is a complete waste of time...
 

Lefty

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Lefty... Juwan Howard isn't going to make one shred of difference in a Bulls-vs-Heat game. And, if it all comes down to Juwan Howard (somehow) I will be stoked that the Bulls are competitive at all against the Heat.

You know, deep down in your heart, that in a Playoff game Juwan Howard will never see any action (and I'm talking 0.00 minutes here), unless there is severe foul trouble, for Miami.

The argument of Thomas, Asik, and Howard is a complete waste of time...

Are you capable of understanding any point that isn't put out chapter-and-verse for you? The point isn't that Juwan Howard is better than Kurt Thomas, the point is that Juwan Howard is Miami's third option at the 4 and 5, whereas Kurt fucking Thomas is the Bulls' backup center. Taking this obvious depth advantage into account, the Miami frontcourt is an easy choice for "which is better overall?".
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Are you capable of understanding any point that isn't put out chapter-and-verse for you? The point isn't that Juwan Howard is better than Kurt Thomas, the point is that Juwan Howard is Miami's third option at the 4 and 5, whereas Kurt fucking Thomas is the Bulls' backup center. Taking this obvious depth advantage into account, the Miami frontcourt is an easy choice for "which is better overall?".

the fact that Kurt Thomas will see some minutes doesn't change my mind that the Bulls have the better front-court than Miami. I don't think it's by leaps and bounds, but that's my opinion nonetheless. Sorry that it doesn't match your's?
 

Lefty

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the fact that Kurt Thomas will see some minutes doesn't change my mind that the Bulls have the better front-court than Miami. I don't think it's by leaps and bounds, but that's my opinion nonetheless. Sorry that it doesn't match your's?

Oh great, here we go with the "everyone has an opinion, this is a sports message board" bullshit that you like to pull out every single time you're called out on one of your stupid arguments or just flat out wrong beliefs.

Look, your unwillingness to acknowledge and account for the clear advantage in depth that Miami holds with their front-court, coupled with your inability to properly gauge and account for minutes played (do you even realize that your initial projection of 70-75 minutes combined for Noah and Boozer would require at least anywhere from an 11 to 20% increase in minutes per game from the both of them, a very difficult proposition at best for a center with bad feet and a guy that has never once in his 8 year career demonstrated an ability to average more than 35 minutes a game? Probably not), makes your "opinions" (which you have, heretofore, purported as fact) a complete joke.

You're either intentionally coming off as dense or you are just completely incapable of removing your head from up the collective ass of the Bulls when it comes to speaking and pondering them critically and realistically, and you use the "well that's just my opinion, and you have yours" statements as an excuse for your unwillingness (or inability) to acknowledge and understand things that are pointed out to you that clearly show your beliefs to the contrary are laughably in error.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Oh great, here we go with the "everyone has an opinion, this is a sports message board" bullshit that you like to pull out every single time you're called out on one of your stupid arguments or just flat out wrong beliefs.

Look, your unwillingness to acknowledge and account for the clear advantage in depth that Miami holds with their front-court, coupled with your inability to properly gauge and account for minutes played (do you even realize that your initial projection of 70-75 minutes combined for Noah and Boozer would require at least anywhere from an 11 to 20% increase in minutes per game from the both of them, a very difficult proposition at best for a center with bad feet and a guy that has never once in his 8 year career demonstrated an ability to average more than 35 minutes a game? Probably not), makes your "opinions" (which you have, heretofore, purported as fact) a complete joke.

You're either intentionally coming off as dense or you are just completely incapable of removing your head from up the collective ass of the Bulls when it comes to speaking and pondering them critically and realistically, and you use the "well that's just my opinion, and you have yours" statements as an excuse for your unwillingness (or inability) to acknowledge and understand things that are pointed out to you that clearly show your beliefs to the contrary are laughably in error.

Carlos Boozer: 34 min/gm in reg. season last year; 40 min/gm in playoffs last year

Joakim Noah: 30 min/gm in reg. season last year; 37 min/gm in playoffs last year

During the regular season, those two guys are going to be able to play the 70-75 minutes. At the very least it will be 60-65 minutes. And in the post-season, it is obvious that they will combine for more minutes in a shortened roster - that will easily be 70-75 minutes, if not even more.

Then for Miami, you have Chris Bosh, who has never played a meaningful minute in the playoffs (unlike Boozer). He is capable of averaging up-to 40 min/gm (avgd 38 in his best reg season; and 40 min/gm in his best playoff series- 2 yrs ago- the last time the Raptors made it.

So there you go. I like what the Bulls have, compared to Miami, in the front-court. Udonis Haslem and Taj Gibson are different players, but from a talent and value stand-point (and minute stand-point), they essentially cancel each other out.

If we see a lot of Bosh-Haslem vs. Noah-Boozer, Boozer-Gibson, or even Noah-Gibson - I see the Bulls with a clear advantage defensively and on the boards in all those cases.

When Miami wants to go with Zydrunas Ilgauskas [or] Joel Anthony + Bosh vs Noah-Boozer - or even vs. Thomas-Boozer, I like what the Bulls have in that case too. Joel Anthony is simply not very good.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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Ok.

Please quit watching basketball, playing basketball, discussing basketball, and writing about basketball.

People wonder why the Chicago fan base is laughed at and taken as a complete joke and responses like this are why.

Rest of NBA fanbase: I'll give you a SF who is just entering his prime and is one of the Top 5-10 players in the league and averages 28ppg 6rpg and 3apg for your oft injured overpaid SF and your center who averages 11ppg and 11rpg.

Bulls fan base: Uhhhhhh.....I don't know....let me think...


Rest of NBA Fan Base: :facepalm: :obama::obama::obama::obama::obama::obama:


Ding...........................

Yes, I am stupid and know nothing about basketball, just because I would heavily contemplate doing, or not doing, a Noah+Deng for Anthony trade.

Enough reason to hold off from making the trade, in itself, could be that giving Anthony a max-contract could hurt the Bulls under the new collective bargaining agreement. Joakim Noah is not going to get paid as much as he wants. And if he does, only then will I shake my head in disgust at the Bulls' organization. All they need to do is match the highest offer Noah gets in free-agency, and re-sign him to additional seasons sometime after that (before or during the 2011-12 season).
 

FirstTimer

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:obama::obama::obama::obama::obama::obama:

Now either you're being purposely obtuse or you really are that dense. In the latter case, here we go:

Juwan Howard > Kurt Thomas

at best, Juwan Howard = Kurt Thomas

Now, here's where it gets tricky, so take your time with this part:

Juwan Howard = Miami's third option at the 4 and third (more likely 4th) option at the 5

Kurt Thomas (remember, he's at best equal to Juwan Howard) = the Bulls' backup 5.

Got all that?














































Ok, good.

Because of those truths, we can see that Miami's front court is better, at least as far as depth goes. You're welcome.

I really didn't think it's this complicated....but yet again CCS lowers the bar....somehow.

Are you capable of understanding any point that isn't put out chapter-and-verse for you? The point isn't that Juwan Howard is better than Kurt Thomas, the point is that Juwan Howard is Miami's third option at the 4 and 5, whereas Kurt fucking Thomas is the Bulls' backup center. Taking this obvious depth advantage into account, the Miami frontcourt is an easy choice for "which is better overall?".

Ding.


Oh great, here we go with the "everyone has an opinion, this is a sports message board" bullshit that you like to pull out every single time you're called out on one of your stupid arguments or just flat out wrong beliefs.

Look, your unwillingness to acknowledge and account for the clear advantage in depth that Miami holds with their front-court, coupled with your inability to properly gauge and account for minutes played (do you even realize that your initial projection of 70-75 minutes combined for Noah and Boozer would require at least anywhere from an 11 to 20% increase in minutes per game from the both of them, a very difficult proposition at best for a center with bad feet and a guy that has never once in his 8 year career demonstrated an ability to average more than 35 minutes a game? Probably not), makes your "opinions" (which you have, heretofore, purported as fact) a complete joke.

You're either intentionally coming off as dense or you are just completely incapable of removing your head from up the collective ass of the Bulls when it comes to speaking and pondering them critically and realistically, and you use the "well that's just my opinion, and you have yours" statements as an excuse for your unwillingness (or inability) to acknowledge and understand things that are pointed out to you that clearly show your beliefs to the contrary are laughably in error.
Ding.

Again.


Carlos Boozer: 34 min/gm in reg. season last year; 40 min/gm in playoffs last year

Joakim Noah: 30 min/gm in reg. season last year; 37 min/gm in playoffs last year

During the regular season, those two guys are going to be able to play the 70-75 minutes.
Yeah because we saw how well Noah held up playing all those minutes last year.

I mean seriously. Did you even watch the Bulls last year?

At the very least it will be 60-65 minutes.
Sweet more time for Kurt Thomas!
:fap::fap::fap::fap::fap::fap::fap::fap:

And in the post-season, it is obvious that they will combine for more minutes in a shortened roster - that will easily be 70-75 minutes, if not even more.
Which is why the Heat's front court depth matters because they won't have to play Bosh/whoever 70-75 mpg. They can keep throwing (generally) better players at the Bulls overplayed frontcourt over the course of a series. Which is why depth matters. I find this entire discussion hilarious because if it was the other way around andthe Bulls had who the Heat did you'd be touting the Bulls depth over the Heat etc...but you have the Bulls **** so far in the back of your throat you can't even form any sort of sensible argument. Depth matters..whether it be in the regular season or the playoffs. That's why Steve Kerr kept getting jobs. That's why Leon Powe helps the Celtics steal a game in the Finals a few years ago, why James Posey turned into a Kobe stopper, why the Heat after signing 3 of the NBA's top 10 players STILL went out and put together a hell of a roster with good depth at most every position. Depth matters. It wins playoff series and championships. If depth didin't matter guys like Juwan Howard and Kurt Thomas would be on TNT. But they still have jobs because they are assests to a team in certain situations. Thomas isn't much of an asset as a backup center because he's old and bad but he'd be a nice 3rd option for some team at the PF or C position.

I find it hilarious that people here are just assigning career high minutes to a Boozer, who has been hurt before, and Noah, who was hurt last season with a foot injury that normally NEVER goes away and will always be an issue. This isn't NBA2k11 where you can just assign minutes to a player and go for it.




If we see a lot of Bosh-Haslem vs. Noah-Boozer, Boozer-Gibson, or even Noah-Gibson - I see the Bulls with a clear advantage defensively and on the boards in all those cases.
Oh yeah...let's just ignore the fact that the Heat also have this guy named Lebron James and this other guy named Dwyane Wade who are some of the best rebounders at their positions in the league. Noah and Boozer/Gibson have to contest with all those guys down low for baords as well...not to mention the wave of physical bigs the Heat can throw at them.

When Miami wants to go with Zydrunas Ilgauskas [or] Joel Anthony + Bosh vs Noah-Boozer - or even vs. Thomas-Boozer, I like what the Bulls have in that case too. Joel Anthony is simply not very good.
Yeah and Kurt Thomas is..............

You're a fucking homer clown.

LOL at you taking a dig at Anthony not being any good but listing Thomas as any sort of an asset as a backup center.
 

FirstTimer

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Yes, I am stupid and know nothing about basketball, just because I would heavily contemplate doing, or not doing, a Noah+Deng for Anthony trade.
Exactly.

Thanks for admitting it.

Enough reason to hold off from making the trade, in itself, could be that giving Anthony a max-contract could hurt the Bulls under the new collective bargaining agreement. Joakim Noah is not going to get paid as much as he wants. And if he does, only then will I shake my head in disgust at the Bulls' organization. All they need to do is match the highest offer Noah gets in free-agency, and re-sign him to additional seasons sometime after that (before or during the 2011-12 season).
.....................................Really? Lefty already covered the financial end of this pages ago. Either start reading posts or STFU.
 

RamiTheBullsFan

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FirstTimer, I find it somewhat distressing that you, or Lefty, can't seem to put together one counter post without at least one petty insult. Honestly, what is the point of that?

I thought we were having a discussion about the front-court, and you go ahead and bring up James and Wade into the conversation... I've already said that I'd be shocked if Chicago can be competitive against Miami in a meaningful game. So it is already implied that I agree with you that MIA completely dominates CHI at the wing positions. You just wanted to make your case for MIA being good on the boards... so you throw in Wade and James in there. Deng is almost as good of a rebounder as James anyway... but sure, MIA has better rebounders at the wing. I agree with you.

Here are all the possible front-court combinations we will be seeing from both teams (assuming everybody on both sides are heathy):

CHI:
Noah-Boozer
Noah-Gibson
Noah-Thomas (unlikely it happens much)
Thomas-Boozer
Thomas-Gibson (unlikely it happens much)
Boozer-Gibson

MIA:
Anthony-Bosh
Anthony-Haslem
Bosh-Haslem
Howard-Bosh
Anthony-Howard (unlikely it happens much)
Ilgauskas-Bosh
Ilgauskas-Haslem
Ilgauskas-Howard

I see the Bulls having 2 out of the best 3 front-court players. The Bulls will have Noah-Boozer playing the majority of the time, and I don't think Miami has any combination that is as good as that. And, whenever Bosh sits (which we can all agree will be at least 8 minutes per-game), Miami has 3 decent options:

Ilgauskas-Haslem: hit mid-range shots, but lack low-post offense.
Anthony-Haslem: Anthony can score in the post, but I'd love to see him try to do that as much as possible compared to seeing the ball in any other Miami player's hands.
Howard-Haslem: under-sized defensively, and bad on the boards against any front-court Chicago uses.

Miami has 5 of the 8 best front-court players. But at a certain point, it won't matter very much.

But, yes, Bosh is better than Boozer. They have the best front-court player, but I don't think he is much better than Boozer at all.

Chicago has 2 of the best 3 front-court players. They arguably have 3 of the top 4. And they definitely have 3 of the top 5 (Bosh, Haslem vs. Boozer, Noah, Gibson).

With that said, I agree, Miami is the better team. But this isn't just some blind homer pick for me to say I'd rather have what the Bulls have in the front-court over what Miami has.
 
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FirstTimer

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FirstTimer, I find it somewhat distressing that you, or Lefty, can't seem to put together one counter post without at least one petty insult. Honestly, what is the point of that?

I find it distressing that you're a big enough idiot to actually have to think about trading Joakim Noah and Luol Deng for Carmelo Anthony.

I thought we were having a discussion about the front-court, and you go ahead and bring up James and Wade into the conversation
Because more than just PF and centers rebound and whatever precieved "advantage" you think that the Bulsl have rebounding wise downlow takes a major hit when you factor in everything and everyone that Boozer and Noah will have to contend with for rebounds.


I've already said that I'd be shocked if Chicago can be competitive against Miami in a meaningful game.
So again...........why in God's name would you even have to think about trading for Carmelo Anthony?

You make ZERO sense.

NONE.

Miami has 5 of the 8 best front-court players.
Ok. Just stop posting. Because that's the entire point. Miami has better depth. In a 7 game series depth will matter. In a one game series maybe it doesn't matter much but in a 7 game series Miami bludgeons us down low and keeps throwing bodies at us.
 

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"Enough reason to hold off from making the trade, in itself, could be that giving Anthony a max-contract could hurt the Bulls under the new collective bargaining agreement. Joakim Noah is not going to get paid as much as he wants. And if he does, only then will I shake my head in disgust at the Bulls' organization. All they need to do is match the highest offer Noah gets in free-agency, and re-sign him to additional seasons sometime after that (before or during the 2011-12 season)."

.....................................Really? Lefty already covered the financial end of this pages ago. Either start reading posts or STFU.

Okay, so the Bulls could conceivably save money by making that trade. You guys haven't come to any conclusive scenario though. We don't know what the new financial structure for the players will look like.

I already agreed with you guys that it is obvious that the Bulls overvalue Noah... it is ridiculous that they won't even consider trading him.

And I've already said this discussion seems like beating a dead horse, because Denver is refusing to take back Deng's contract, regardless of whether or not Noah is included.
 
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RamiTheBullsFan

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Haha, you just can't help yourself with the insults, dude.

And if the Bulls made that trade for 'Melo, they still wouldn't beat Miami. That's why.
 

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[/QUOTE=RamiTheBullsFan]
. And if he does, only then will I shake my head in disgust at the Bulls' organization. All they need to do is match the highest offer Noah gets in free-agency, and re-sign him to additional seasons sometime after that (before or during the 2011-12 season).
Wow. So you would be disgusted if the Bulls overvalued Noah from a monetary perpsective but because of some possible CBA negotiation you wouldn't mind them overvaluing Noah from a trade asset perspective?

Is none of this getting through to you that you make no sense?

Overvaluing Noah in a contract=bad.

Overvaluing Noah as trade bait for a Top 5-10 Player in the NBA based upon a possible CBA negotioation in a year=Ok.

The Heat just signed 3 guys to $15million deals AND filled out their roster..if they aren;t worried about the CBA then I don't think we should be to damn concerned either.



Okay, so the Bulls could conceivably save money by making that trade. You guys haven't come to any conclusive scenario though. We don't know what the new financial structure for the players will look like.
And you don't know either. So again. We know for sure making this trade makes our team better for at least the short term. The long term effects based on a CBA negotiation remain to be seen...so why not make the trade and cross the possible CBA bridge when you come to it? You look at the payrolls of teams like the Heat, Lakers, Celtics, etc and if they aren't too concerned about it we shouldn't be either. We want to be a big dog and be talked about in championships discussions we better start acting like it.

Haha, you just can't help yourself with the insults, dude.

And if the Bulls made that trade for 'Melo, they still wouldn't beat Miami. That's why.

They'd have a better chance with him than without him..and if you can give yuorself a betetr chance and a better team to build around to compete with the Heat year in and year out...you do it....because that's the entire point........
 

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Can you at the very least admit that the trade would be risky?

You would be essentially giving up two quality starters for one.

You were talking about depth being important before... that plays into depth.

You were talking about Miami seemingly having a better front-court. That trade ensures they will long into the future - by leaps and bounds.

You and Lefty were talking about doing financially smart decisions... and now you have back-tracked off of that just to make your point that 'Miami and LA have spent big money on contracts and it has paid off so that means we should too.'

So being smart with money is only important when it jussssssst so happens to help your arguement, eh?

And you still see how you are being a lil bit unfair?

:sigh:
 

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