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Then we have vitters.
Simply put you don't draft or dont sign free agents based on something 5 years away.
Then we have vitters.
Simply put you don't draft or dont sign free agents based on something 5 years away.
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I think Cubs have come to grips Vitters is a bench player or starting 3B/1B for a bad team. When he hitting .270 12 HR and only walked 12 times in AA theres not much hope for him.
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http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/...e-will-they-spend-will-they-not-thread-5.html
I can go there, but what I think will happen with spending, and my feelings on Ricketts aren't going to change until he hires a new GM.
2SeamHeat
I Know Nuffing!!!!!
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All honestly guys i dont see Cubs signing Fielder either. Reason is cause they gave there 2nd RD pick a 1B 2.5 mil. You dont give a prospect 2.5 mil then fill his position for the next 7 years. I just dont want to see Pena back. .200 hitter with 25 HR 70 HR doesnt do it for me. Rather them GO YOUNG. Either get the superstar or go young. None of this half ass bullshit to try and make it seem like they going for it when we all know they are not.
PS: Thanks for the great conversation guys. I like when we can all state our opinion and no one gets mad
Let's see, Vogelbach is 18... he has 6 years to get to 24... which happens to be when he'd run out of options and all of that. I also think that giving Fielder anything more than 5-6 years is kinda stupid. Besides, if you sign Fielder, you develop Voglebach in case something happens to him. Then, when the time comes, you trade one of them.
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Drafting anything besides best available talent is stupid in any draft, but none more so than in mlb. I don't think we can interpret the Cubs intent based upon players drafted and signings given out.
Here is the crux of the argument for CJ Wilson. Teams with bad offenses and good starting pitching tend to hang around in races and do better in the postseason then teams with great offenses and bad starting pitching. CJ Wilson is a cureall proposition, but having a front 3 of Wilson-Garza-Dempster is a much better option than anything the Cubs could afford with signing Fielder to the 20 million per year 7 year+ type deal he is seeking.
Here is the crux of the argument for CJ Wilson. Teams with bad offenses and good starting pitching tend to hang around in races and do better in the postseason then teams with great offenses and bad starting pitching. CJ Wilson is a cureall proposition, but having a front 3 of Wilson-Garza-Dempster is a much better option than anything the Cubs could afford with signing Fielder to the 20 million per year 7 year+ type deal he is seeking.
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Just looking out for ya. Would hate to see the thread closed cuz Dewey thinks you are taking it off topic.
Then again Dewey agrees with you so you can be as off topic as you want.
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Our line up is pretty terrible. Soriano, Byrd, Colvin, and Barney are all starting and quite honestly all suck dick.
I don't believe that any of them walk more than 4.5% of the time. What this teams needs and has always needed is the big superstar bat in the middle of the line up. Fielder gives us that.
Sure, many of them may go off the board, but I don't think that there will be as big of a drop off in the best pitcher and the 2nd best pitcher in the class of 2012. The Cubs pretty much would have to get both Wilson and Fielder to compete next year and quite frankly, I don't see that happening. If next year is a waste, we need to plan for the future. By 2013 or 2014, I think that we have some solid arms in the system that COULD be rotation material. What do we have in the system at 1B? An 18 year old and Vitters. Sure pitching has sucked this year, but over the last 65 years the Cubs have had an above average offense once, which was 2008. I think that this season pitching wise is pretty much a fluke and we can rebound and get some decent pitching, by just not having Davis Lopez Russell and Coleman
Why would you want to bring back Pena for several seasons? He is old and declining.
Do you really think we'll be in a race next year? Plus adding Wilson doesn't give us a good enough rotation to win with a shitty offense. Look at the Giants, they have a shitty offense and one of the best rotations and they are barely hanging on. I really don't think Wilson does that much for us.
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Uh, the Cubs offense has been better than the pitching a fair bit in the past 65 years. This great pitching with a terrible offense is really only an occurrence of the past 10 years more so the first few years of this millenium.
I don't think we will be good enough with just one addition. I think that Wilson puts us closer than any other acquisition. I think Fielder's elite years are only going to be the first couple (he also fluctates a lot between great and good years). The Cubs options at 1B are bad right now, but anyone can play 1B. If we get a big time bat at any position we can shift that player or another to 1B and be fine. Also I think you overestimate are systems ability to produce top of the rotation starting pitching. We have a bunch of guys that might be able to fill 4-5 spots in a good rotation, but the only guys that might even project as an ace are more than 2 years away.
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our offense sucks dick?
lol its better than our pitching situation easily...
we are 3rd in BA in the NL(damn RISP), a little below average in runs per game,5th in slugging,above average in OPS
sure, they dont walk great..but some of the younger guys will learn as time goes on
and no im not saying the offense is great..but the main problem is injuries and pitching(easily bottom of the NL in numerous pitching stats)...another problem is,of course, older overpayed veterans coupled with younger guys still learning
fielder helps quite a bit..but he himself does not make this team a serious contender....
lol its better than our pitching situation easily...
we are 3rd in BA in the NL(damn RISP), a little below average in runs per game,5th in slugging,above average in OPS
sure, they dont walk great..but some of the younger guys will learn as time goes on
and no im not saying the offense is great..but the main problem is injuries and pitching(easily bottom of the NL in numerous pitching stats)...another problem is,of course, older overpayed veterans coupled with younger guys still learning
fielder helps quite a bit..but he himself does not make this team a serious contender....
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Just a quick glance at Cubs history from 84 to 89 the Cubs lead the NL in runs scored per game twice and were top 2 in two other seasons. The Cubs historically were known for being a team with a good offense and crap pitching. This season has been an at best average and at worst slightly below average offense and crap pitching.
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Well I couldn't disagree more about the last 65 years. Since 46, the Cubs have had a .321 OBP, good enough for 4th to last, a .714 OPS, which is in the bottom third of teams, and a .311 wOBA, which is T-5th worst.
Pitching wise, ERA is middle of the pack at 4.08, 3.96 which is top 10, and a 1.69 K/BB rate, which is about middle of the pack as well. So I'm not sure what makes you think that the pitching has been worse, but it hasn't.
I don't think that a guy that plays 2 days a week is really going to help this team more than a guy who doesn't play 2 days a year.
Okay, the top of the rotation guys are 2 years away, our only good 1B prospect is like 4 years away. Fielder is good, he is pretty consistent, and he gets on base a shit load, which is what this teams IMO.
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Wait a minute, let me digest this... CO says Soriano sucks dick? What brings upon this change in your thoughts CO?
And to be fair, Castro doesn't walk much either.
/not trolling/baiting
And to be fair, Castro doesn't walk much either.
/not trolling/baiting
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BA doesn't mean shit.
SLG is overvalued, and we are only above average in OPS, when SLG and OBP are weighted evenly. You need guys on base to score runs. We don't get guys on base. That is this teams problem. And of course our pitching is terrible when Lopez, Davis, Ortiz, Coleman, and Russell have 37 starts. What else do you expect? Do you except them to start more than a combined 5 games next year? I don't. That right there drastically improves the offense.
EDIT: What young guys do you think can walk? barney, colvin, and campana??
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He's just not that good anymore. He's above average, as is Byrd, but they don't walk and it pisses me off
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The Cubs lack of OBP is well documented, and the Cubs have had plenty of years they were terrible in both categories. Though even if as a whole they were terrible for the most part I already found just glancing at a few years two seasons the Cubs were the top team in the league in scoring. This idea that the Cubs have always struggled to score runs is crazy. Plus comparing the team against all the other teams since 46 to the present is silly since many teams are expansion teams that didn't play through eras of pitching dominance. That said I don't see how any of that has anything to do with what is best for the Cubs now.
I said that the guys that are potentially a top of the rotation starter is more than 2 years away. Any of the guys that even profile like that are high risk guys that are as likely to flame out then reach their ceiling. The Cubs are in a tough position right now because they lack both top of the rotation starting pitching and impact bats at the corner infield spots. You want the Cubs to get the best available player. I want the Cubs to get the best player that fills the weakest spot on the Cubs. Neither move alone is going to make this team a contender next season.
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Just because you use different metrics to evaluate players, doesn't mean yours are right, and ours are wrong.
The names you mentioned likely won't be back, but if injuries occur, you will see similar talent at the back end of the rotation.
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That's just 5 years.... and yes, one season, but I don't think that this season is being weighted fairly due to the 37 starts by TSGOP(That sucky Group of Pitchers)
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Yes that is just five years, but it disproves your contention that only 1 season in the past 65 years were the Cubs good on offense. Okay I understand that there were injuries, but what pitchers currently in the organization are likely to give better production? Cashner who has yet to throw more than a 100 innings as a professional? Trey McNutt who has struggled at AA this year and been unable to stay healthy? Jay Jackson who has sucked at AAA this year? Casey Coleman whose stuff is only a shade better than Frank Castillo's and lacks the control and pitching ability of Castillo? The Cubs have 2 quality starters in place next season in Garza and Dempster. Everything besides that is questionable at best. That is why signing Fielder and hoping to sign a Matt Cain type to replace Ryan Dempster really doesn't get this team any closer to contending.
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Okay, but how big is the difference between Wilson and Jackson vs. Fielder and Pena?
Fielder and Pena is about 4 wins, Wilson and Jackson is about 2. Even if the Cubs do need SP as bad as you say, which I don't think that they do, it's much easier to get a lesser SP vs. a lesser 1B.
Actually, no, mine are better. Mine actually correlate to runs.