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In unrelated news: The Cubs ripped the White Sox a new one 7-0.
because it matters.
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because it matters.
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not sure whats going on with the feuds in here but imo pitching is premium. Id take cash over a so so will see if he pans out 1Bmn all day long.
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HurricaneDij39
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The argument wasn't Cashner, it was Paul Maholm vs Rizzo.
But, since both Pat and Silence S like to talk up Cashner as if he should be preparing his Hall-of-Fame induction speech, understand that our offense at the major league level is one of the worst in baseball and Rizzo was our entire offense even in a bad year. That will be the case to begin this year as well. Go ahead and take Cashner then if you're comfortable with Schierholtz/Ruggiano hitting 3-4 in our order.
I'd like to see Cashner prove he's not a one-year wonder. His home/away splits pitching in San Diego are key for me as well.
But, since both Pat and Silence S like to talk up Cashner as if he should be preparing his Hall-of-Fame induction speech, understand that our offense at the major league level is one of the worst in baseball and Rizzo was our entire offense even in a bad year. That will be the case to begin this year as well. Go ahead and take Cashner then if you're comfortable with Schierholtz/Ruggiano hitting 3-4 in our order.
I'd like to see Cashner prove he's not a one-year wonder. His home/away splits pitching in San Diego are key for me as well.
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Um trying to figure out where SS is saying Cashner is God, and Maholm is any good.... And why Hurricane is just starting fights.
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Double post.
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I didnt. Hurricane isnt very smart.
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Rizzo wont the first year. Cashner won the second. If CAshner stays healthy, he is a beast. Rizzo has holes in his swing and approach that worries me. His hands were extremely low last year and was whiffing on any hard and low breaking ball. This year should be a telling sign which way these players will go. I hope they both do well though.
As for "feuds", I have no feud. Hurricane is just crazy. lol
chibears55
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Mueller has adjusted his hands this spring and so far its been working well , hopefully it carries over to regular season..
As far as the trade goes.. I root for whoever on their roster to succeed. . I dont worry about the what if because especially with minor leaguers you dont know how they would play had you kept them because situations and environment are different.
Cashner has good stuff ,needs to show he can pitch better outside SD..
Rizzo has good power , just needs to get the AVG. up.
Both players are talented and could have long term success for their team..
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HurricaneDij39
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Silence will flip-flop his opinions like junior high girl, and when an argument doesn't go his way he'll hurl up random, groundless insults (lies, things he doesn't actually believe) just for the sake of winning an argument.
I'd love to see him one day prove me wrong but instead he'll just throw out a 4th grade-level, blanket insult, that someone must have dropped you on your head when you were a baby.
Perhaps his obsessiveness from this thread would fill you in:
http://www.chicitysports.com/forum/showthread.php/38981-Cashner-vs-Rizzo
HurricaneDij39
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Andrew Cashner had a 1.95 ERA at PETCO last season, arguably the best pitcher's park in baseball. A 4.00 ERA everywhere else. Hmmm. You could easily see the double standard when some people have no problem mocking my Edwin Jackson argument, who had compiled a 4.06 ERA in 996 innings from 2008-2012.
For those that want to argue that Rizzo is a "maybe" prospect, you might want to view deeper into the stat line. In 2013, Rizzo had 40 doubles, 76 walks, 23 home runs, and 80 RBI. The only part of his game that left something to be desired was his batting average, something he's already working on this spring. Even if it's as an Adam LaRoche-type, I'd say there's a greater chance he pans out than to say he won't.
For those that want to argue that Rizzo is a "maybe" prospect, you might want to view deeper into the stat line. In 2013, Rizzo had 40 doubles, 76 walks, 23 home runs, and 80 RBI. The only part of his game that left something to be desired was his batting average, something he's already working on this spring. Even if it's as an Adam LaRoche-type, I'd say there's a greater chance he pans out than to say he won't.
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Lol, I never changed my opinion. You still are an idiot. Cashner was better last year. Congrats, Cashner was good at his home park and still above average away. Rizzo also hit in one of the best hitter park last year. Your problem is you dont comprehend things well then go on a rant. Then you get called name because you are in fact an idiot then blow it out of proportion because you have a vag about things.
Rizzo has holes in his swing. He has looked better with his hand this spring, but he still has holes. A .230 hitter is not this walk on water player. I want both of them to do well. Your problem is you want Rizzo to prosper and Cashner to fail because you are a homer and not a baseball fan. I wish all players the best except a handful that I dislike.
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Seems to me you're the one obsessed, but that's just me, you psychopath.
CSF77
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Flip flop would be on thread I love Rizzo more than Cash. Another thread I love Cash more than Rizzo.
Not having an opinion based on his own point of view that doesn't follow us vs them mentality. (lemming shit)
So if he is flip flopping on the same issue fine. (who cares anyways) Dude you need to chill. You are being the problem child here.
Swear acting like a victim.
Not having an opinion based on his own point of view that doesn't follow us vs them mentality. (lemming shit)
So if he is flip flopping on the same issue fine. (who cares anyways) Dude you need to chill. You are being the problem child here.
Swear acting like a victim.
HurricaneDij39
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How's that? Is it because I actually form my own opinion and actually stick with it regardless of consensus? Whenever I respond to you, you never respond back, so make up your mind. I swear, some of you post far too often. Because I have yet to achieve 200 posts on here, I simply judge message board arguments based on what I see from afar.
I got nothing against Cashner. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy that most on here label the Edwin Jackson signing, who the prior five years maintained a consistent ERA of around 4.00, to four years was the dumbest move in the world. Yet, those same people are willing to plug Cash at the top of any rotation as if we had just lost Greg Maddux, based on one good year of pitching (and an ERA of exactly 4.00 away from PETCO).
And for the record, I'm not just a Cubs fan. I have two fantasy teams slated for this year and didn't add either Cashner or Rizzo to either team. I did however add Marlon Byrd, one of Jim Hendry's old boys...
beckdawg
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Silence and I went around about Cashner before but I have no issues with him(Silence). I still think Cashner is a bigger product of PETCO than he wants to admit but whatever. It's not that big of a deal. The telling thing to me is Cashner's 8.1% HR/FB ratio last season. xFIP uses 10.5% as the league "average" and the three prior years Cashner himself had 17.2%, 11.1%, and 15.7%. A 2-3% uptick there could seriously impact his ERA. We're talking a half run if not more.
Perhaps Cashner has changed. His k/9 was a career low 6.58 as was his bb/9. I'm not going to pretend I follow San Diego enough to know if he's changed pitches. The K/9 in of itself is a bit worrying as 7 k/9 is generally more indicative of a mid-rotation starter. Ultimately, I think he's a Travis Wood level pitcher. And while the cubs obviously could use young pitching, I just don't think he's enough to warrant caring this much. If you swapped him with Shark I don't think he's enough to warrant caring this much either. All three(Wood, Shark, Cashner) are middle of the rotation types who maybe have the upside of a 2 in good years.
As for Rizzo, he honestly had a better season than people give him credit for. His wRC+ even with a horrid batting average was 102 which is above average in terms of MLB hitters. His ISO was the same as Votto and better than Fielder, Adrian Gonzalez, and Freddie Freeman. His walk rate is top 10 in terms of 1b. If his BABIP this year rebounds to .290 he's in the top 10 OBP conversation at 1B and .290 would still be below league average. And more importantly, he was a 23 year old on a top 5 worst team in baseball last year. That's not to say there shouldn't be questions about Rizzo. He's a career .194/.270/.347 hitter vs lefties. That flat out has to get better even if he only ever gets to .230/.300. But the 2013 cubs were far from an ideal environment to hit in.
Overall, I'm still taking Rizzo long term. He's got around 6+ years left(using 30 as the cut off) in his "prime" and has proven to be a near gold glove quality defender with no injury history wont be a FA until 2020 at the earliest and possibly 2022. Cashner was traded in part because of durability issues has maybe 3+ year left in his "prime" and will be a FA in 2017. Cashner very well could be next years version of Shark where his opinion of value is vastly more than what SD is willing to pay. And if we go with the logic that last year Rizzo won and this year Cashner won you need to view it in the light that last year a 22 year old Rizzo was better player than a 25 year old Cashner. This year a 23 year old Rizzo was worse than a 26 year old Cashner. So, what is Rizzo going to be as a 25-26 year old?
To me that's the issue at heart here if we throw out all what-if style projections. And to build on that, if we assume say 3 years until whatever prospects that make it end up in the majors you are talking about a 30 year old Cashner at that point vs a 27 year old Rizzo. He lines up well with "the future." Combine that with the fact at 27 this should be as good as Cashner will ever be where as Rizzo at 24 has several years of "growth" he could still have.
Perhaps Cashner has changed. His k/9 was a career low 6.58 as was his bb/9. I'm not going to pretend I follow San Diego enough to know if he's changed pitches. The K/9 in of itself is a bit worrying as 7 k/9 is generally more indicative of a mid-rotation starter. Ultimately, I think he's a Travis Wood level pitcher. And while the cubs obviously could use young pitching, I just don't think he's enough to warrant caring this much. If you swapped him with Shark I don't think he's enough to warrant caring this much either. All three(Wood, Shark, Cashner) are middle of the rotation types who maybe have the upside of a 2 in good years.
As for Rizzo, he honestly had a better season than people give him credit for. His wRC+ even with a horrid batting average was 102 which is above average in terms of MLB hitters. His ISO was the same as Votto and better than Fielder, Adrian Gonzalez, and Freddie Freeman. His walk rate is top 10 in terms of 1b. If his BABIP this year rebounds to .290 he's in the top 10 OBP conversation at 1B and .290 would still be below league average. And more importantly, he was a 23 year old on a top 5 worst team in baseball last year. That's not to say there shouldn't be questions about Rizzo. He's a career .194/.270/.347 hitter vs lefties. That flat out has to get better even if he only ever gets to .230/.300. But the 2013 cubs were far from an ideal environment to hit in.
Overall, I'm still taking Rizzo long term. He's got around 6+ years left(using 30 as the cut off) in his "prime" and has proven to be a near gold glove quality defender with no injury history wont be a FA until 2020 at the earliest and possibly 2022. Cashner was traded in part because of durability issues has maybe 3+ year left in his "prime" and will be a FA in 2017. Cashner very well could be next years version of Shark where his opinion of value is vastly more than what SD is willing to pay. And if we go with the logic that last year Rizzo won and this year Cashner won you need to view it in the light that last year a 22 year old Rizzo was better player than a 25 year old Cashner. This year a 23 year old Rizzo was worse than a 26 year old Cashner. So, what is Rizzo going to be as a 25-26 year old?
To me that's the issue at heart here if we throw out all what-if style projections. And to build on that, if we assume say 3 years until whatever prospects that make it end up in the majors you are talking about a 30 year old Cashner at that point vs a 27 year old Rizzo. He lines up well with "the future." Combine that with the fact at 27 this should be as good as Cashner will ever be where as Rizzo at 24 has several years of "growth" he could still have.
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You still over generalize peak years. You put everyone in the same category and I dont find that to be true, just my opinion though.
Cashner has changed. He has learned how to pitch. The manager of the Padres said the K's are coming. Cashner was working on either a change or another pitch last year that started to get really good. Im not going to sugar coat it, Cashner has Ace stuff and is at the age where he could prosper in Petco. Cashner stays healthy, he is going to become at worst a solid 2. Rizzo, I dont know. His swing and approach just bother me a lot. I hope he has made adjustments. This year is telling for both. Like I said, I hope both players the best especially Rizzo because he is on the Cubs. My point of that whole debate were people were dismissing Cashner and he had a hell of a season. Lets not forget that this wasnt an easy trade for the Cubs to make. Theo wasnt really for it. Hoyer talked him into it. Hoyer lobbied for Rizzo. We will see where both players wind up in a couple of years.
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How do we know that Hoyer wanted Rizzo and Theo wasn't really for it?
CSF77
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I was on the fence about this deal to. At the time Cashner was on and off injured. Rizzo was a monster at at the minor league levels and had a bad start with the Pads.
To be real here this debate dates back to CBS were one side wanted Fielder. Theo had LaHair. And this was a defining trade showing the direction of this era. They traded for cheap labor vs paying for premium.
If they turned around and signed a top flight starter this would have been put to bed. But alas they signed Maholm; again cheap labor.
This topic was just another anti Theo topic. The one that started it all.
To be real here this debate dates back to CBS were one side wanted Fielder. Theo had LaHair. And this was a defining trade showing the direction of this era. They traded for cheap labor vs paying for premium.
If they turned around and signed a top flight starter this would have been put to bed. But alas they signed Maholm; again cheap labor.
This topic was just another anti Theo topic. The one that started it all.
CSF77
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In one of Theo's interviews a few years back he brought it up showing that there are differences of opinion in the decision process.
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We don't. Part of the trade lies in the familiarity of Rizzo with Theo and his camp (whether he wants to admit it or not). This trade has grown more interesting as both players (Rizzo, Cashner) progress in their careers. It's also a prime example of why people who keep griping about players like Castro who take a step back are bums. These guys are still extremely young in terms of experience. Not every prospect is a Manny Machado, Mike Trout, Evan Longoira or Ryan Bruan and come in to set the world on fire immediately. Sometimes it takes years for guys to put it together, especially if they're changing mechanics, adding pitches, anything like that.
There are some eerie parallels to Cashner and Rizzo's careers. For both guys, it's their second "full" seasons (I know Cashner is farther along with his arb. clock, but it's his second full season as a starter). Both guys play in parks that cater to their skill sets, and both guys are asked to be integral parts to teams that have a lot of holes. personally, I'm rooting for both guys. They're both fun to watch. I want them both to do well.