They're starting to post stuff like this and it's making me nervous

[DewsSox79]

good ansewer. keep sipping that kool aid.

 

[mountsalami]

Quite a few here have stated that the best way to build a team is by building the core of the team through the system only and ignoring FA until that core is developed and at the major league level.

They have also said they would rather have a 60 win team and a top five pick over an 85 win team and a late teen's early 20's pick.

Here is what I see are the problems with these plans....

Ignoring FA until the core of the team is fully developed from the system ignores the Cubs greatest strength. Their resources and the revenue the team generates which should easily support a top five payroll each and every season and still maintaining a profitable business for the owners.

It is putting all your eggs into the draft and amateur FA pool where the new system has equaled the playing field for all teams.

Losing 60 games in a season will get you that top 5 pick sure, but you are still 30 games from being a playoff contender. The likelihood of that player never being a quality major leaguer is extremely high and even if he does turn into an All Star comes up way short of making up those 30 games by himself.

An 85 win team gets you a worse pick sure, but you also have 25 less games to improve on to be a legitimate playoff contender. A pick in the late teens or early 20's does not have a significantly worse chance of becoming a quality major leaguer or All Star and could easily be that 5 game difference all by himself if you end up with a Mike Trout who was nabbed with the 25th pick in the first round.

That is why I think you need to try to field as quality of team as possible each and every year and not just simply throw away entire seasons for a better draft pick. Chances are better than not that that pick will end up being less than an All Star caliber player.

I went through quickly and looked at the top five picks in a ten year span between 2000-2009 and here are the results...

2009 - Strasburg (AS), Ackley and three players who have yet to make the majors.
2008 - Alvarez, Hosmer (Avg), Matusz, Posey (AS) and the #1 pick Tim Beckham still in the minors.
2007 - Price (AS), Moustakas (Avg), Vitters, Moskos, Wieters (Avg)
2006 - Hochevar, Reynolds, Longoria (AS), Lincoln, Morrow (Avg)
2005 - J Upton (AS), Gordon (Avg), Clement, R Zimmerman (AS), Braun (MVP)
2004 - Bush, Verlander (MVP), Humber, Niemann, Rogers
2003 - D Young, Weeks (AS), Sleeth, Stauffer, Lubanski
2002 - Bullington, B Upton (Avg), Gruler, Loewen, Everts
2001 - Mauer (MVP), Prior (AS), Brazleton, Floyd, Teixeira (AS)
2000 - Gonzalez (AS), Johnson, Montanez, Stodolka, Wayne.

My ratings go as follows..

MVP - easy enough.

AS - All Star. Made at least one All Star Game, which is a bit generous for players like Prior, Weeks and Zimmerman who made one AS Game but otherwise have been average or injured.

Avg - Again giving the benefit of the doubt to a couple young players like Mostakas and Hosmer

Everyone else has gets qualified as either a disappointment, below average player or a total bust.

So out of 50 picks of the best of the best we have 3 MVP's, 10 All Stars, 6 average players and 31 below average of busts.

So completely throwing away a seasons gives you a 6% chance of getting an MVP, 26% of one All Star game or better, 38% of average or better and 62% of a below average player or total bust.

That is why I am not in favor of throwing away a season. Not good odds on the payout.

Some players taken 16th or later in that same time frame include....

Trout, Brett Jackson, Brett Lawrie, Ike Davis, Andrew Cashner, Matt Cain, Adam Wainwright, David Wright, Cole Hamels, Nick Swisher, David Murphy, Adam Jones, James Loney, Denard Span, Jeff Francouer, Carlos Quentin, Jacob Ellsbury, Colby Rasmus, Chris Perez, Joba Chamberlin, Ian Kennedy, Clay Buchholz, Gio Gonzalez, Chad Billingsley and Huston Street.

No MVP or Cy Young's but pretty close on All Star Games and average or better I would say.

If the Cubs have truly improved their scouting dept, wouldn't fielding a better team and picking later not really hurt the team all that much as the improved scouting dept should be able to do just as well picking later in the round and not having to hit a home run on the pick to justify throwing the season away??

 

[JosMin]

have I not been against this whole plan of theos?

lets bank on prospects. hows that working? jackson,vitters etc etc.

Or we could be like the White Sox and have... you know, zero prospects to bank on.

Some of you assume that due to the prospect rankings and the fact that theo has them they will all turn out to be studs. that is the delusion some of you have.

So what if some of the prospects fail? you have zero major league talent that can be dealt to replace flop specs outside of garza.

Soriano, Marmol, Fujikawa and the throng of pitching they signed in the off-season says otherwise. Not every trade nets A-grade prospects. Besides, how many times do you see unheralded prospects turn into solid everyday contributors? None of us have once said we're expecting everyone to turn into Ernie Banks. However, you'd be hard-pressed to find somebody who is disappointed with the depth we're adding for position playing prospects. Pitching, on the other hand, still needs another strong draft and a few trades.

the system is soooo dry of pitching that your lover signs: feldman,baker and that dumb contract of jacksons....and than to top it off due to sharks one year he is all of a sudden untouchable.

Feldman and Baker were signed to add depth to a huge weakness the Cubs had last year -- starting pitching. Sure, they aren't the 1970s Orioles, but a rotation of Garza, Samardzija, Jackson, Feldman and Baker isn't the worst thing in the world. Hell, they could end up being the bright spot of the team. And who said Samardzija is untouchable? It would make absolutely no sense to deal a young pitcher who isn't eligible for free agency until 2016 unless the Cubs were blown away with an offer for him. His control greatly improved last year and there were a few games that he looked like he had the gusto to one day become a #2 starter. It's kind of the same thing with Chris Sale -- the guy had one really good year as a starter. Wouldn't you think the White Sox would be hard pressed to trade him unless they were offered something ridiculous?

 

[JosMin]

I figured as much.

Let's wait on Soler and "stockpile" draft picks that we already are entitled to whether or not a competitive team is placed on the field.

What do you mean you 'figured as much,' Special person? You said the Cubs tried to catch lightning in a bottle and I just handed you a plate of ass with all the trimmings that supports the fact that they did the exact opposite? And you didn't even address the fact that you were wrong.

Please, stop while you're ahead.

 

[JosMin]

Quite a few here have stated that the best way to build a team is by building the core of the team through the system only and ignoring FA until that core is developed and at the major league level.

They have also said they would rather have a 60 win team and a top five pick over an 85 win team and a late teen's early 20's pick.

Here is what I see are the problems with these plans....

Ignoring FA until the core of the team is fully developed from the system ignores the Cubs greatest strength. Their resources and the revenue the team generates which should easily support a top five payroll each and every season and still maintaining a profitable business for the owners.

It is putting all your eggs into the draft and amateur FA pool where the new system has equaled the playing field for all teams.

Losing 60 games in a season will get you that top 5 pick sure, but you are still 30 games from being a playoff contender. The likelihood of that player never being a quality major leaguer is extremely high and even if he does turn into an All Star comes up way short of making up those 30 games by himself.

An 85 win team gets you a worse pick sure, but you also have 25 less games to improve on to be a legitimate playoff contender. A pick in the late teens or early 20's does not have a significantly worse chance of becoming a quality major leaguer or All Star and could easily be that 5 game difference all by himself if you end up with a Mike Trout who was nabbed with the 25th pick in the first round.

That is why I think you need to try to field as quality of team as possible each and every year and not just simply throw away entire seasons for a better draft pick. Chances are better than not that that pick will end up being less than an All Star caliber player.

I went through quickly and looked at the top five picks in a ten year span between 2000-2009 and here are the results...

2009 - Strasburg (AS), Ackley and three players who have yet to make the majors.
2008 - Alvarez, Hosmer (Avg), Matusz, Posey (AS) and the #1 pick Tim Beckham still in the minors.
2007 - Price (AS), Moustakas (Avg), Vitters, Moskos, Wieters (Avg)
2006 - Hochevar, Reynolds, Longoria (AS), Lincoln, Morrow (Avg)
2005 - J Upton (AS), Gordon (Avg), Clement, R Zimmerman (AS), Braun (MVP)
2004 - Bush, Verlander (MVP), Humber, Niemann, Rogers
2003 - D Young, Weeks (AS), Sleeth, Stauffer, Lubanski
2002 - Bullington, B Upton (Avg), Gruler, Loewen, Everts
2001 - Mauer (MVP), Prior (AS), Brazleton, Floyd, Teixeira (AS)
2000 - Gonzalez (AS), Johnson, Montanez, Stodolka, Wayne.

My ratings go as follows..

MVP - easy enough.

AS - All Star. Made at least one All Star Game, which is a bit generous for players like Prior, Weeks and Zimmerman who made one AS Game but otherwise have been average or injured.

Avg - Again giving the benefit of the doubt to a couple young players like Mostakas and Hosmer

Everyone else has gets qualified as either a disappointment, below average player or a total bust.

So out of 50 picks of the best of the best we have 3 MVP's, 10 All Stars, 6 average players and 31 below average of busts.

So completely throwing away a seasons gives you a 6% chance of getting an MVP, 26% of one All Star game or better, 38% of average or better and 62% of a below average player or total bust.

That is why I am not in favor of throwing away a season. Not good odds on the payout.

Some players taken 16th or later in that same time frame include....

Trout, Brett Jackson, Brett Lawrie, Ike Davis, Andrew Cashner, Matt Cain, Adam Wainwright, David Wright, Cole Hamels, Nick Swisher, David Murphy, Adam Jones, James Loney, Denard Span, Jeff Francouer, Carlos Quentin, Jacob Ellsbury, Colby Rasmus, Chris Perez, Joba Chamberlin, Ian Kennedy, Clay Buchholz, Gio Gonzalez, Chad Billingsley and Huston Street.

No MVP or Cy Young's but pretty close on All Star Games and average or better I would say.

If the Cubs have truly improved their scouting dept, wouldn't fielding a better team and picking later not really hurt the team all that much as the improved scouting dept should be able to do just as well picking later in the round and not having to hit a home run on the pick to justify throwing the season away??

Matt Wieters is a two-time All-Star, yet you're too stupid to follow your own ranking system (designating him as average). The guy's also a two-time Gold Glover and one of the main reasons the Orioles made the playoffs last year. Again, nice try though.

 

[mountsalami]

What do you mean you 'figured as much,' Special person? You said the Cubs tried to catch lightning in a bottle and I just handed you a plate of ass with all the trimmings that supports the fact that they did the exact opposite? And you didn't even address the fact that you were wrong.

Please, stop while you're ahead.

Nice to see you pat yourself on the back as being the board's revisionist historian.

Dumb.

 

[Shawon0Meter]

mount, I understand your frustration. Go to the Cubs Convention in a couple weeks and get some questions in to Theo and Jed.

 

[dabynsky]

have I not been against this whole plan of theos?

lets bank on prospects. hows that working? jackson,vitters etc etc.

Some of you assume that due to the prospect rankings and the fact that theo has them they will all turn out to be studs. that is the delusion some of you have.

So what if some of the prospects fail? you have zero major league talent that can be dealt to replace flop specs outside of garza.

the system is soooo dry of pitching that your lover signs: feldman,baker and that dumb contract of jacksons....and than to top it off due to sharks one year he is all of a sudden untouchable.

whateverzzz teh theoszz doeszz isz teh bestz

So you've always been against the Cubs rebuilding?

 

[Anno Catuli]

So you've always been against the Cubs rebuilding?

Go figure. A Sox fan being against something that might make the Cubs good.

 

[DewsSox79]

Or we could be like the White Sox and have... you know, zero prospects to bank on.




Soriano, Marmol, Fujikawa and the throng of pitching they signed in the off-season says otherwise. Not every trade nets A-grade prospects. Besides, how many times do you see unheralded prospects turn into solid everyday contributors? None of us have once said we're expecting everyone to turn into Ernie Banks. However, you'd be hard-pressed to find somebody who is disappointed with the depth we're adding for position playing prospects. Pitching, on the other hand, still needs another strong draft and a few trades.



Feldman and Baker were signed to add depth to a huge weakness the Cubs had last year -- starting pitching. Sure, they aren't the 1970s Orioles, but a rotation of Garza, Samardzija, Jackson, Feldman and Baker isn't the worst thing in the world. Hell, they could end up being the bright spot of the team. And who said Samardzija is untouchable? It would make absolutely no sense to deal a young pitcher who isn't eligible for free agency until 2016 unless the Cubs were blown away with an offer for him. His control greatly improved last year and there were a few games that he looked like he had the gusto to one day become a #2 starter. It's kind of the same thing with Chris Sale -- the guy had one really good year as a starter. Wouldn't you think the White Sox would be hard pressed to trade him unless they were offered something ridiculous?

lol @ your chris sale comment. not even close. nice try though...no...really nice try.

I really dont care about our specs as long as they are serviceable.

 

[DewsSox79]

So you've always been against the Cubs rebuilding?

there are many ways to rebuild a team. this one is ehhh at best.

 

[dabynsky]

there are many ways to rebuild a team. this one is ehhh at best.

What approach should they have taken without a core of major league talent, no prospects and what you've been saying for a long time no money since ownership is in debt?

 

[mountsalami]

Conversely, you are a Hendry-Trub cultist who wants to spend for the sake of spending and get piled up with back-loaded contracts to have a one-or-two year window of opportunity before falling on our asses like 2010.

Boston builds through the farm and supplements it with free agents, New York does the same. Spending wildly and disregarding the rebuilding process and being stuck with nearly un-tradeable Sorianos to block whatever talent you develop is such a great plan. You are a fucking genius, you know that? We should just fire Theo, Hoyer, and McLeod and let you and d3a run everything. :clap:

You complain about my "spacing"....

Yet I have to continue to scroll through dumbass juvenile pictures, videos, and your list of championships.
You are a real fucking genius yourself.

Show me where I've stated to "spend wildly", or is this just a staple term used by the boards "braintrust" when they have ran out of ammo when I have factually countered their agenda.

 

[JosMin]

lol @ your chris sale comment. not even close. nice try though...no...really nice try.

I really dont care about our specs as long as they are serviceable.

What's funny about the Sale comment? The guy was a reliever for two seasons and then had a successful season as a starter. You're acting like he's Justin Verlander. The guy hasn't done shit, just like Samardzija. And no, I'm not inferring that I think Samardzija is the same caliber of pitcher or has the same ceiling as Sale. What I'm saying is what's wrong with a team being cautious about a young player that they have plenty of financial control over? Not only would it be stupid for the Cubs to trade Samardzija, but it'd be equally stupid to offer him an extension when he's still cheap. The same thing goes for Sale.

And about your prospects -- they aren't even serviceable. They're terrible. The White Sox farm system is laughable, and that's me being polite. Hands down, the worst farm system in baseball. If Courtney Hawkins and Keon Barnum get you excited, then by all means, have at it.

 

[waldo7239117]

I'm not gunna add anything to a troll and an attention whore. This is it and I'll post in other threads, that mean way more.

 

[mountsalami]

Matt Wieters is a two-time All-Star, yet you're too stupid to follow your own ranking system (designating him as average). The guy's also a two-time Gold Glover and one of the main reasons the Orioles made the playoffs last year. Again, nice try though.

Clearly most of the original post was ignored because there was no logical and intelligent counter for it so instead you latched onto a very minor point and continued to fuel your agenda.

 

[JosMin]

Clearly most of the original post was ignored because there was no logical and intelligent counter for it so instead you latched onto a very minor point and continued to fuel your agenda.

Or you could just admit that you were wrong and haven't made a single point, other than you're butt hurt the Cubs are rebuilding their franchise instead of having a $150 million dollar payroll.

 

[mountsalami]

Or you could just admit that you were wrong and haven't made a single point, other than you're butt hurt the Cubs are rebuilding their franchise instead of having a $150 million dollar payroll.

Without signing significant free agents THIS offseason, the Cubs will be pretty much the same as they are now and you will be back to arguing it will be a waste for a team this bad to sign a MVP free agent to a $200 million contract.
Kansas City and Pittsburgh have been trying to fill their big league clubs with home grown talent for about the last 25 years.

I believe they have one or two winning seasons between them in about the last 20.

But of course you are correct that it is a very simple and foolproof plan to win. That is why every team is a winning team every year, because ALL teams would be doing it if it was so simple and the Albert Pujols and Price Fielder's of the world would never get $200 million contracts because you can just plug an Anthony Rizzo in.




It is a perpetual cycle until the Cubs get lucky enough to develop an entire core of players from the system like everyone wants to happen before signing FA's.

I guess we will see in 2032.

 

[Jntg4]

You complain about my "spacing"....

Yet I have to continue to scroll through dumbass juvenile pictures, videos, and your list of championships.
You are a real fucking genius yourself.

Show me where I've stated to "spend wildly", or is this just a staple term used by the boards "braintrust" when they have ran out of ammo when I have factually countered their agenda.

That wasn't me dumbfuck, not reading the rest of your post either, it obviously contributes nothing.

 

[Jntg4]

So basically...
1. We have d3a 2.0 being a moron
2. Dewey hates the Cubs rebuilding plan because the Cubs chose it.
3. d3a 2.0 doesn't use common logic.