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Not to mention Kobe going into hero mode and shooting them out of almost every game trying to be the man.
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Kobe wouldn't have been as heavily depended upon in that series if Malone was healthy.
The first thing we all should look at, when figuring out why a series went the way it did, is injuries.
I'm pretty sure Karl Malone was still averaging 14 points and 9 rebounds per-game at well over 50% from the field up until that NBA Finals series when he sprained his right knee.
Detroit was a great, balanced team. I even rooted hard for them to beat L.A. But they wouldn't have necessarily beaten the Lakers if it wasn't for Malone being done in.
S.A. wins the title in 2003. Then loses to the Super Lakers in 2004.
Then Karl Malone gets hurt and Detroit walks all over the depleted Super Lakers.
Then, in 2005, S.A. squeaks by Detroit in a 7-game Finals to re-claim the title after Shaq, GP, and Malone depart.
The first thing we all should look at, when figuring out why a series went the way it did, is injuries.
I'm pretty sure Karl Malone was still averaging 14 points and 9 rebounds per-game at well over 50% from the field up until that NBA Finals series when he sprained his right knee.
Detroit was a great, balanced team. I even rooted hard for them to beat L.A. But they wouldn't have necessarily beaten the Lakers if it wasn't for Malone being done in.
S.A. wins the title in 2003. Then loses to the Super Lakers in 2004.
Then Karl Malone gets hurt and Detroit walks all over the depleted Super Lakers.
Then, in 2005, S.A. squeaks by Detroit in a 7-game Finals to re-claim the title after Shaq, GP, and Malone depart.
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I don't have much optimism for the short-term future. But it is possible the Bulls can beat the Heat even with this exact same roster. I'm just not buying that because I really thought that this season would be the best chance to beat the Heat before they stock up with young players on rookie contracts and develop better chemistry and half-court offense as a whole.
I don't think Houf is a LeBron fan. But, for the sake of argument, let's say he is. So what? You can be an Aaron Rodgers/Brett Favre fan and still be a Bears fan. You can be a Ewing fan and still be a Bulls fan (as weird as that would be). Like it or not, LeBron James is the most talented and pretty easily the best player in basketball. Knicks fans loved Jordan and respected him greatly even before he ever won a title just because of the magic he could do on the court. This is not that magical era, but LeBron is the greatest basketball player in the world and it is understandable why a Bulls fan would/could like/admire him.
I've seen him stand up for the Bulls on rare occasions. He tends to take the glass half empty point of view- not much different than the typical pessimistic Chicago sports fan.
Being a fan has nothing to do with whether or not you're objective. It's whether your heart breaks when the team in question loses. And whether you get pumped when they win.
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Well, I'm of the mind that the Bulls can and will beat Miami. I'm as optimistic as it comes. I know where the team is limited and I know where it is strong and what it needs to be better. I don't have to prop up other players to do that.
The part bolded is something that you cannot be, ever! As far as lebron goes. He's really good, but he is way over hyped for someone who doesn't show up when it counts.
That point of view is deeply rooted in love for your team. I don't get that from his posts. I've never seen him stand up for the Bulls. Ever. If he did, maybe I wouldn't despise him so much, but he never does. He also tries to bully his opinion and put down posters who disagree with him, and then moans and whines when people call him on his shit.
Well, his heart didn't break when the Bulls lost. He was telling us to be objective and how this was a good thing that Miami won. To me, he's a front runner, and only goes with popular opinion, or whatever ESPN says.
I don't see that as being a fan.
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Kobe wasn't really depended on so much as he was trying to shw up Shaq and show that he was the man. Remember, they were still in that "whose team is it" battle.
The Bulls never get that excuse when they lose. They had players dealing with injuries, and they were expected to perform at 100% level. So i never give other teams that excuse.
Not an excuse.
Detroit was the better team. Unless you're saying the better team doesn't lose from time to time.
The Lakers were better than them.
You can't be depleted with 3 other Hall Of Famers on your team.
Well, Those S.A. teams were really good.
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LeBron lived up to the hype and then some in his first few seasons. He decided to be content with the praise he had gotten and didn't seem to give a damn about improving his game. And the guy shrinks when the pressure is on his back to step up and deliver when his team needs him to. As flawed as he is, there is nobody you can claim is a hands-down better basketball player. Kobe Bryant is a little too old for that honor anymore. Rose is a lot like a smaller version of James with better handles. Dwight Howard... Dwyane Wade... Kevin Durant... not as good as LeBron. Neither is Nowitzki.
As far as the bolded part goes... you can be a Favre fan or Rodgers fan as long as you root for the Packers to lose every week and especially against the Bears. Basically, as long as you root for your direct rivals to lose, and for your team to win... you are a fan of that team.
He doesn't bully anymore. He used to call you names and shit like that but he really has cooled off with that. He used to infer that his word was solid gold but he really doesn't do the 'if you don't know that, you're stupid' thing anymore.
You can't possibly know that. You can't read minds.
Please back that up if you are going to make that claim.
You really don't know that either. A lot of people watch ESPN and it contorts some of their opinions. But that's sort of a cheap shot.
houheffna
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you should ignore him...he is nothing but background noise to me...
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While that is partially true, that is also skewing history. That is what the media hyped it up as after L.A. shockingly lost. Malone being injured made it the Kobe/Shaq show in the NBA Finals while Detroit was playing with a 5-man balanced attack. The Lakers defense, rebounding, and scoring took a major hit with Malone being hurt. And that is a big reason it was nothing but Kobe and Shaq shooting the ball. Kobe obviously missed more often because he is not taking as high-percentage shots as O'Neal at the 2 position.
The Bulls were extremely fortunate that they didn't go through injury problems like losing Rodman or Grant for a later series. If that happened, they probably would have lost too.
Malone never made excuses and was the NBA's iron man. He may not have missed 1 game in his entire career before the 2004 season.
Detroit was the better team largely because of the injury to Malone. In the NBA, the better team wins 99% of the time in a best-of-seven game series set up.
When Slava and Brian Cook is the back-up for the injured 4th HOFer... yes.
Let's use the transitive property for a minute here.
The Spurs beat the same Piston team that beat the Lakers the year before after the Spurs lost to that Lakers team when Malone was healthy.
To lay it out in simple terms:
L.A. (w/Malone) > S.A. > Det > L.A. (w/o Malone)
...I'm not trying to rag on Detroit here, because they were a great team. But nobody can say for certain that they would have beaten L.A. if Malone never sprained his knee.
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The bolded, that's why he will never be considered truly great to me. Those players may not be better in your opinion, but Kobe, Wade and Dirk have led their teams to titles and lebron has done nothing but lose in the finals. Rose will win one before it's all said and done. I don't know if I can say the same for lebron.
I'm a Wade fan and I don't hate the Heat. I like the Heat, I just really hate lebron. I was a Wade fan since his college days, that and the fact that we grew up one block from each other in Washington Park. If you watched the ECF when they showed Wade's childhood home, My block is on the other side of the El tracks. Plus I'm good friends with his cousin and you heard my talk about the draft and title parties I went to.
Well, I only see what people quote of him and it's full of the same shit, plus he called me dick2keva in this very thread.
How could he be heart broken when he's telling us to be objective and going on and on about how people were making excuses.
Don't have, go look at the old posts for yourself.
I watch ESPN, mostly to disagree with them and their excessive lebron nut slurping. He does nothing but reguritate the same things they say. This isn't about that blowhard, this is about the Bulls and Miami.
I'm more interested in your opinions, seeing as you said you have very little optimism for the short term.
This is where we disagree. I think the Bulls (when healthy) can beat Miami. The Bulls were NOT healthy in this series. But seeing as they never get the injury excuse, I don't know what else to say.
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Damn, I must be the only person who knew going in that Detroit was going to win the series. It was the same in 99 when people were all on LA's nuts and I told people that San Antonio was going to win the title. Nobody believed me, until it happened.
Losing Omer hurt the Bulls defense, which in turn hurt their offense as they couldn't get on the break as easy. Also Boozer was not 100% and neither was Noah. Those are major factors that people just dismiss.
I lost a lot of respect for Malone after he cried and begged his way to the MVP in 97. He's a great player, no doubt. But he was not the main reason LA lost.
Detroit was the better team, because they were the better team. Simple concept.
But you still have 3 other HOF players on your team.
You're giving Malone way too much credit. They still had a prime Shaq and Kobe was denying him the ball and taking bad shots, trying to be the man. That's not spin, that's what happened.
I can, and I did.
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LeBron is so dominant in other categories that he really is great despite those flaws. You're entitled to your opinion though. I hope that you don't consider Rose great yet either then.
I'm not going to say you aren't a Bulls' fan because you like the Heat and Wade. It's the same concept. You root for the Bulls and that's what makes you a fan.
In his defense, you do act pretty dicky towards him. It's not much of my business but I really don't like to see that stuff... and you seem to initiate it.
Strange way of coping?
If you say something that extreme, you should really be ready to back it up with substance.
The problem is that I don't think Boozer is very likely to be healthy. And even if he was healthy, he doesn't mesh well with Noah. And sucks on defense. A Ray Allen caliber player would help. But even if they got Ray Allen himself... beating the Heat is a tall order.
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Nobody knew that. And if they did "know" it, they must have been kidding themselves.
Okay? I'll take your word for it?
The difference between the CHI-MIA (2011) and DET-LAL (2004) series is that Miami would have likely have won the series even if Boozer, Noah, Brewer, Rose, and Asik were 100% healthy.
Did you lose respect for Jordan when he punched Steve Kerr in the face and proverbially grabbed his nutsack all over the HOF? I ask because you never seem to show criticism for the Bulls players. Only other teams' players.
For somebody who hates excuse making, you sure don't mind making up excuses for why Chicago lost to Miami.
Once again, you cannot prove that Detroit would have beaten L.A. at 100%. Detroit might have been the better team anyway. They certainly were better than L.A. without a healthy Malone. But you cannot know for certain what would have happened. You're trying to sound cocky, and are doing just what you say upset you about Houf.
Okay? They had shit at SF and PF and Shaq was playing a full 48 minutes almost. That is hardly the whole story. You're conveniently ignoring all other factors besides that L.A. had the best two players on the court.
Malone is wayyyyyyy better than Medvedenko. And even the minutes he played, he was gimping around out there. You aren't giving that nearly enough credit.
Shaq took a LOT of shots in each game. Kobe took a lot of bad ones... because he's Kobe and sometimes he makes them.
Just like what I said to Houf about Noah... Kobe went up against a great, legendary defense in DET. Of course he was not going to shoot a great percentage.
You see? You're being hypocritical about the 'I'm right and you're wrong' thing.
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you must have a different scale in regards to judging player's greatness...does winning a title help the greatness scale? sure..but there are so many other fields of judgement that must be considered as well...plenty of very good to great players have never won a title like Malone and Barkley..
lebron does have some confidence issues in the finals(look at his last two performances...really perplexing...although he did actually have a triple double in the dallas series..i think people overlook that a little)
but if we are comparing the players right now vs. kobe wade and dirk..gimme lebron overall considering his overall ability,athleticism,size,etc.
i'll take dirk or wade in the finals...but in every other sense i prefer lebron
im not refuting its significant lebron has finals issues..but it should not necessarily define the type of player he is...
the verdict is still out on rose...but i think he wins a title or two..and lebron probably will as well(considering if not for the collapse in game 2..that series may have gone a completely different direction)
seems pretty evident by your posts
i agree with rami in that you seem to be always attacking him or being hostile..i think its best you really try your best to just say indifferent..but i shouldnt get too involved here
you cant always decipher someone's emotions through posts on the internet...
he may tell people to try to be objective and stop making excuses...maybe thats a little extreme...but that doesnt mean he isnt disappointed in the bulls loss
but you did bring it up
does espn cover lebron a bunch and praise a little much? maybe
but he is one of the if not the best player on the planet..he did leave cleveland to go to miami in a "loud manner" so you expect he will get alot of attention
fair enough...then try not to bring him up or make incessant jabs at him...but again i shouldnt get too involved in this
beat miami in a series?
hard to say...if boozer is healthy and can be a constant 20 and 10 threat(which i still think he is relatively close to) then maybe...
i think there alot of things that could be worked on regarding the bulls...
A. 3pt shooting..spreads out defense opens up inside...miami utilized lack of 3pt shooting
B.improved and higher quantity of facilitators..improving flow of offense
C.Another guy who can step up and be a playmaker(whether it be boozer or someone outside the team)
D.Noah increasing his offensive production in the post(more than just cleanup..i think having deng,noah,boozer,and rose as well as 3 pt shooting will go a long way)
thing is, Miami is still going to be good for a couple of years, especially now since they know their roles and have played with each other for a year...
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seems like you arent a big LA fan either....lol..but thats something we have in common
hard to say exactly what would have happened if everyone was healthy..i think the bulls would have had a better chance definitely..thing is the bulls would still face a great miami defense that would probably do some packing in because everyone being healthy doesnt solve the bulls 3 point shooting woes
not to mention the bulls dont have 3 guys who can make serious plays...
although i think the series would be closer if everyone was healthy
if that hadnt happened and the exact same scenario happened in 2004..would you feel the same?
they were the better team when the two played in the circumstances they were in
i still think losing malone hurt considering now you have a little bit of a hole at PF...although it may not have been exactly the deciding factor
ya, but those two could not do it on their own, especially with the apparent growing "chemistry" issues between kobe and shaq(although i think the kobe/shaq dynamic played a role in their loss)
plus if you watch kobe play since he started in the nba..he probably throws up more bad shots than any player ive seen...lol...he has the ability to make alot of them go in though
cool story bro
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I think it is more "4th quarter" issues than Finals issues.
Look at the last 2 series he lost.
BOS 2010 - shrunk in the face of all the expectations being on his back. After taking a 2-1 series lead, the Cavs just got destroyed in each of the next three games and LeBron looked like he didn't know what to do. It was like he checked out of the series mentally and looked to be a set-up guy when the Cavs had nobody who could create for themselves.
DAL 2011 - pretty much the same story. MIA takes a 2-1 series lead and the guy then has 8 points in a loss that ties the series.
Then Wade, who was the guy LeBron was facilitating for, gets hurt in Game 5 and LeBron is STILL not attacking the basket and being aggressive like they needed him to be. Dallas then goes up 3-2 and never look back.
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thing is..he was great in the 4th quarter against the bulls..and at times i have seen..lebron does very well in the fourth quarter on offense and defense..i have especially seen an improvement this year
the biggest thing i see from lebron is not wanting attention and responsibility when his team is faced with serious adversity or he feels some kind of burden(there are some contradicting examples but thats something i have noticed)
he has been subpar to his average production in both finals he has been in..
i have seen him step up in the ECF, and the semis, but the finals? i dont think we've seen him really play well for the whole duration of the series... yet
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Exactly.
But the SA series doesn't really count because the Cavs won a horrible conference and were nowhere near as good as the Spurs.
Anyway... what you said is right. The Bulls series was a series the Heat knew they were supposed to win and knew the Bulls had not been together for a long time either.
By the time Game 5 rolled around, the Heat already had a 3-1 death grip on the series and they knew if they started getting stops and hitting shots that they would come back and win.
The Boston series, I think, had a lot to do with Rondo being hurt. And the Perkins trade. Otherwise, I think Miami would have lost that series.
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certainly not...since that team WAS lebron...but i would feel a little different if lebron had dominated and the team still lost the series...the spurs isnt D chopped liver but at the same time you have to expect lebron has the ability to exceed regardless of the defense(lebron tore up the pistons D that may have been declining but certainly was damn good)
i wouldnt say that exactly...i mean the heat did get eaten alive in game 1...at the same time though i think they had an advantage coming off an impressive series victory over boston..i think after game 1 their confidence was alot higher..it helps when there's a long period between game 1 and 2 because of the last showing of Oprah(bulls lose momentum and miami has more time to rethink defensive strategy...although some counter points can be made to this assertion..although i think the delay had some effect)
thats the thing..a little less pressure in lebron's case and maybe miami's team as a whole is going to lead to more confidence in their abilities and less thought of risk...
if you noticed after game 2 in the finals..lebron's production took a little dip..then hit bottom in game 4...although at that point miami was up 2-1 in the series..i still think he felt intimidation in the form of the finals stage and being in dallas..not to mention being rattled by the comeback in game 2
and regarding rondo..he didnt get the injury until game 3 did he?
i think the heat might have been the better team here....considering boston was aging and they traded perkins
although i dont refute rondo's injury had an impact
DCguy
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LeBron is a big front runner. Whenever teams and guys he is either guarding him or he is guarding isn't intimidated of him, he falls back. When he thinks he has your heart, than you see what he did against the Bulls.
If you watch Game 1 in the Finals, he thought he had the Mavericks heart. But what happened was Shawn Marion was talking in his ear the whole series, Jason Terry got tired of the "LeBron shutting him down" talk and trashed talked him. Than Stevenson jumped in it.
Trash talkers got to him, they weren't scared. That's how street ballers are. LeBron knows, that's why some undisclosed teammate said he was letting the talk get to him. Jason Terry talked himself into playing good. He stood up to LeBron and it shocked him and made 1 shot and got in his face. You didn't notice Stevenson taunting LeBrons boys in game 6 when he went on a shooting streak in the 2nd quarter? When you are as good as LeBron is, people sometimes tend to lay down. He hasn't realized in the NBA, they don't do that.
If you watch Game 1 in the Finals, he thought he had the Mavericks heart. But what happened was Shawn Marion was talking in his ear the whole series, Jason Terry got tired of the "LeBron shutting him down" talk and trashed talked him. Than Stevenson jumped in it.
Trash talkers got to him, they weren't scared. That's how street ballers are. LeBron knows, that's why some undisclosed teammate said he was letting the talk get to him. Jason Terry talked himself into playing good. He stood up to LeBron and it shocked him and made 1 shot and got in his face. You didn't notice Stevenson taunting LeBrons boys in game 6 when he went on a shooting streak in the 2nd quarter? When you are as good as LeBron is, people sometimes tend to lay down. He hasn't realized in the NBA, they don't do that.
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Rose is on his way to becoming great. He isn't there yet, but you can see it. lebron putting up empty stats doesn't make him great. It makes him really good, better than most players, but to be considered one of the all time greats, you gotta win when it counts and show up in the big series. He hasn't done that and I'm not going to crown him the king and all of that if he hasn't on anything.
Thing is, I don't root for Miami to win, just for Wade to play well, so when he plays well against the Bulls, it makes it that much better when we beat his team. My Wade fanhood comes from neighborhood pride. And him being one of the best players in the league.
I am a dick towards him because of how he is to people. I mean he called me basketball Special person when I never even called him out of his name before. He can't take it when people disagrees with him and gets his panties in a bunch when it happens. Maybe he has calmed down, but since i don't see most of his posts, I'll just trust you on it.
Maybe, but telling people who were pissed and hurting to be objective is not my idea of coping.
They have a search function on here right? I'm not sure if I saw one.
You may be right on this, I just think that Bulls don't really need Boozer to beat Miami. They had chances with him on the bench.