What was the biggest reason we lost to Miami in 2011?

[RamiTheBullsFan]

certainly not...since that team WAS lebron...but i would feel a little different if lebron had dominated and the team still lost the series...the spurs isnt D chopped liver but at the same time you have to expect lebron has the ability to exceed regardless of the defense(lebron tore up the pistons D that may have been declining but certainly was damn good)

That Spurs' defense was a lot better than the Piston's (minus Ben Wallace). Did you see Tayshaun Prince cowering in fear when LeBron scored those 29/30 points? They were all running out of his way.

The Spurs in 2007>>>>>>The Pistons. You of all people should know that.

i wouldnt say that exactly...i mean the heat did get eaten alive in game 1...at the same time though i think they had an advantage coming off an impressive series victory over boston..i think after game 1 their confidence was alot higher..it helps when there's a long period between game 1 and 2 because of the last showing of Oprah(bulls lose momentum and miami has more time to rethink defensive strategy...although some counter points can be made to this assertion..although i think the delay had some effect)

I think they knew what to expect from the Bulls' offense after Game 1 and that was the reason why they were so confident. And after Haslem and Mike Miller (who had not played nearly at all, all season) started getting hot and evening the rebounding gap... they knew it was their series.

thats the thing..a little less pressure in lebron's case and maybe miami's team as a whole is going to lead to more confidence in their abilities and less thought of risk...


if you noticed after game 2 in the finals..lebron's production took a little dip..then hit bottom in game 4...although at that point miami was up 2-1 in the series..i still think he felt intimidation in the form of the finals stage and being in dallas..not to mention being rattled by the comeback in game 2

LeBron starts feeling pressure against great teams that he is supposed to beat. A lot of people actually picked BOS and CHI to defeat MIA and they were out with something to prove.

Almost every media person said publicly that the DAL series was going to be a cakewalk for MIA. And then LeBron started to feel the pressure.

and regarding rondo..he didnt get the injury until game 3 did he?

i think the heat might have been the better team here....considering boston was aging and they traded perkins

although i dont refute rondo's injury had an impact

Well, I really thought BOS would come back and tie the series. Then Rondo got hurt in Game 3 and the Celtics still won.

Then, in Game 4, I believe Pierce missed the would-be game-winner that would have evened the series 2-2. And then, in Game 5, the Celtics actually had a 4th quarter lead. Rondo was playing terrible all of the while.

Rondo healthy and I really think BOS would have won the East.

That is what pissed me off when Wade and James practically made out with each other, acting like they won a championship, when they won the series.

 

[Glide2keva]

Nobody knew that. And if they did "know" it, they must have been kidding themselves.

Saying it to anyone who would listen, but since Chicago was full of bandwagon Laker fans at the time, no one was trying to hear it. Until it happened.

Okay? I'll take your word for it?

It's the truth.

The difference between the CHI-MIA (2011) and DET-LAL (2004) series is that Miami would have likely have won the series even if Boozer, Noah, Brewer, Rose, and Asik were 100% healthy.

I think Chicago wins, healthy team vs. healthy team.

Did you lose respect for Jordan when he punched Steve Kerr in the face and proverbially grabbed his nutsack all over the HOF? I ask because you never seem to show criticism for the Bulls players. Only other teams' players.

Ask Kerr, because he was the one that took the punch and I loved Jordan's speech. I don't see what the problem is with what he said.

For somebody who hates excuse making, you sure don't mind making up excuses for why Chicago lost to Miami.

What excuse did I make? I'm not blaming the refs, or anything like that. I'm saying the Bulls had chances to in and didn't and also had injuries that no one is excusing them for.

Once again, you cannot prove that Detroit would have beaten L.A. at 100%. Detroit might have been the better team anyway. They certainly were better than L.A. without a healthy Malone. But you cannot know for certain what would have happened. You're trying to sound cocky, and are doing just what you say upset you about Houf.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that I was saying that Detroit was going to win the series and they did it in 5 games. How is that being a ****** bag like hou? How is that cocky? Am I only supposed to say the favorite is going to win all the time?

Okay? They had shit at SF and PF and Shaq was playing a full 48 minutes almost. That is hardly the whole story. You're conveniently ignoring all other factors besides that L.A. had the best two players on the court.

LA could've beat Detroit if Kobe wasn't in hero mode and they played team ball.

Malone is wayyyyyyy better than Medvedenko. And even the minutes he played, he was gimping around out there. You aren't giving that nearly enough credit.

And no one is giving the Bulls players credit for trying to play through injuries.

Shaq took a LOT of shots in each game. Kobe took a lot of bad ones, because he's Kobe and sometimes he makes them.

That's true, but still they needed him to be better than what he thought he was. He is just now learning that.

Just like what I said to Houf about Noah. Kobe went up against a great, legendary defense in DET. Of course he was not going to shoot a great percentage.

Kobe never shoots a good percentage anyway.

You see? You're being hypocritical about the 'I'm right and you're wrong' thing.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I said that I could and I did say that Detroit would beat LA.

 

[Glide2keva]

you must have a different scale in regards to judging player's greatness...does winning a title help the greatness scale? sure..but there are so many other fields of judgement that must be considered as well...plenty of very good to great players have never won a title like Malone and Barkley..

lebron does have some confidence issues in the finals(look at his last two performances...really perplexing...although he did actually have a triple double in the dallas series..i think people overlook that a little)

but if we are comparing the players right now vs. kobe wade and dirk..gimme lebron overall considering his overall ability,athleticism,size,etc.

i'll take dirk or wade in the finals...but in every other sense i prefer lebron

im not refuting its significant lebron has finals issues..but it should not necessarily define the type of player he is...

the verdict is still out on rose...but i think he wins a title or two..and lebron probably will as well(considering if not for the collapse in game 2..that series may have gone a completely different direction)



seems pretty evident by your posts



i agree with rami in that you seem to be always attacking him or being hostile..i think its best you really try your best to just say indifferent..but i shouldnt get too involved here



you cant always decipher someone's emotions through posts on the internet...

he may tell people to try to be objective and stop making excuses...maybe thats a little extreme...but that doesnt mean he isnt disappointed in the bulls loss


but you did bring it up



does espn cover lebron a bunch and praise a little much? maybe

but he is one of the if not the best player on the planet..he did leave cleveland to go to miami in a "loud manner" so you expect he will get alot of attention




fair enough...then try not to bring him up or make incessant jabs at him...but again i shouldnt get too involved in this




beat miami in a series?

hard to say...if boozer is healthy and can be a constant 20 and 10 threat(which i still think he is relatively close to) then maybe...

i think there alot of things that could be worked on regarding the bulls...

A. 3pt shooting..spreads out defense opens up inside...miami utilized lack of 3pt shooting

B.improved and higher quantity of facilitators..improving flow of offense

C.Another guy who can step up and be a playmaker(whether it be boozer or someone outside the team)

D.Noah increasing his offensive production in the post(more than just cleanup..i think having deng,noah,boozer,and rose as well as 3 pt shooting will go a long way)

thing is, Miami is still going to be good for a couple of years, especially now since they know their roles and have played with each other for a year...

And the Bulls will be better also.

 

[Glide2keva]

I think it is more "4th quarter" issues than Finals issues.

Look at the last 2 series he lost.

BOS 2010 - shrunk in the face of all the expectations being on his back. After taking a 2-1 series lead, the Cavs just got destroyed in each of the next three games and LeBron looked like he didn't know what to do. It was like he checked out of the series mentally and looked to be a set-up guy when the Cavs had nobody who could create for themselves.

DAL 2011 - pretty much the same story. MIA takes a 2-1 series lead and the guy then has 8 points in a loss that ties the series.

Then Wade, who was the guy LeBron was facilitating for, gets hurt in Game 5 and LeBron is STILL not attacking the basket and being aggressive like they needed him to be. Dallas then goes up 3-2 and never look back.

That's because he can beat up on supposed lesser comp. but when he has to step up and lead, he shrinks and that why he isn't great to me.

 

[Glide2keva]

thing is..he was great in the 4th quarter against the bulls..and at times i have seen..lebron does very well in the fourth quarter on offense and defense..i have especially seen an improvement this year

the biggest thing i see from lebron is not wanting attention and responsibility when his team is faced with serious adversity or he feels some kind of burden (there are some contradicting examples but that's something i have noticed)

The truly great players thrive in these moments. lebron doesn't, he shrinks.

He has been subpar to his average production in both finals he has been in.

This is where he needs to shine. The big stage. People always say the regular season doesn't mean anything, yet they praise lebron for his regular season empty stat production.

i have seen him step up in the ECF, and the semis, but the finals? i dont think we've seen him really play well for the whole duration of the series... yet

When he does, then we call him great and discuss his all time position.

 

[Glide2keva]

Exactly.

But the SA series doesn't really count because the Cavs won a horrible conference and were nowhere near as good as the Spurs.

Anyway... what you said is right. The Bulls series was a series the Heat knew they were supposed to win and knew the Bulls had not been together for a long time either.

By the time Game 5 rolled around, the Heat already had a 3-1 death grip on the series and they knew if they started getting stops and hitting shots that they would come back and win.

The Boston series, I think, had a lot to do with Rondo being hurt. And the Perkins trade. Otherwise, I think Miami would have lost that series.

I agree with this. I do still think the Bulls could've won the series had some things not went against them.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

LeBron is a big front runner. Whenever teams and guys he is either guarding him or he is guarding isn't intimidated of him, he falls back. When he thinks he has your heart, than you see what he did against the Bulls.

If you watch Game 1 in the Finals, he thought he had the Mavericks heart. But what happened was Shawn Marion was talking in his ear the whole series, Jason Terry got tired of the "LeBron shutting him down" talk and trashed talked him. Than Stevenson jumped in it.

Trash talkers got to him, they weren't scared. That's how street ballers are. LeBron knows, that's why some undisclosed teammate said he was letting the talk get to him. Jason Terry talked himself into playing good. He stood up to LeBron and it shocked him and made 1 shot and got in his face. You didn't notice Stevenson taunting LeBrons boys in game 6 when he went on a shooting streak in the 2nd quarter? When you are as good as LeBron is, people sometimes tend to lay down. He hasn't realized in the NBA, they don't do that.

i agree with alot of this post..though i do think lebron has gotten his fair share of jab in the NBA...he may be used to it..but a combination of that along with the other factors i mentioned may have been too much

That Spurs' defense was a lot better than the Piston's (minus Ben Wallace). Did you see Tayshaun Prince cowering in fear when LeBron scored those 29/30 points? They were all running out of his way.

The Spurs in 2007>>>>>>The Pistons. You of all people should know that.

ya im not arguing the pistons were a great team..or that the east wasnt a bit weak that year..however...the pistons were 2nd in PPG allowed in the reg season...they were still a good defensive unit....especially with wallace inside...not necessarily a cakewalk for lebron...in a situation where lebron is on like he was..its just hard to stop him period

I think they knew what to expect from the Bulls' offense after Game 1 and that was the reason why they were so confident. And after Haslem and Mike Miller (who had not played nearly at all, all season) started getting hot and evening the rebounding gap... they knew it was their series.

that may be...but i still think its hard to say definitely that they were confident considering what actually happened in game 1..i'm sure they had some plan going forward..and the delay between 1 and 2 probably helped as well as getting haslem back

LeBron starts feeling pressure against great teams that he is supposed to beat. A lot of people actually picked BOS and CHI to defeat MIA and they were out with something to prove.

mostly agreed...although i think there was a sense that miami could beat boston..

my own doubt about miami beating chicago came from the fact that chicago swept miami in the reg season..no team before miami had beaten a team that swept them in a reg season series in the playoffs...but the reg season sweep had a little to do with the fact that chicago may have been a little more healthy at times coupled with the big 3 still learning their roles and learning how to play together

Almost every media person said publicly that the DAL series was going to be a cakewalk for MIA. And then LeBron started to feel the pressure.

probably a little hyperbolic..remember dallas was ripping through the western conference..so there was a sense that dallas had a chance..but i agree with the point being made here

Well, I really thought BOS would come back and tie the series. Then Rondo got hurt in Game 3 and the Celtics still won.

Then, in Game 4, I believe Pierce missed the would-be game-winner that would have evened the series 2-2. And then, in Game 5, the Celtics actually had a 4th quarter lead. Rondo was playing terrible all of the while.

Rondo healthy and I really think BOS would have won the East.

That is what pissed me off when Wade and James practically made out with each other, acting like they won a championship, when they won the series.

maybe maybe not....i think chicago may match up a little better with boston..but thats jmo

i think boston would definitely have had a better chance if rondo was healthy

although rondo didnt play too bad against miami(atleast in one of the games):

game 4:rondo 10 pts,5 ast,38 min,4-7 shooting

game 6: 6 pts,2 ast

i think you have to give the miami d a little credit...although the injury did make an impact...

miami was pretty dominant in the beginning of the series...and maybe if rondo hadnt got injured they would have came back..hard to say

 

[Glide2keva]

LeBron is a big front runner.

Whenever teams and guys he is either guarding him or he is guarding isn't intimidated of him, he falls back. When he thinks he has your heart, than you see what he did against the Bulls.

If you watch Game 1 in the Finals, he thought he had the Mavericks heart. But what happened was Shawn Marion was talking in his ear the whole series, Jason Terry got tired of the "LeBron shutting him down" talk and trashed talked him. Than Stevenson jumped in it.

Trash talkers got to him, they weren't scared. That's how street ballers are. LeBron knows, that's why some undisclosed teammate said he was letting the talk get to him. Jason Terry talked himself into playing good. He stood up to LeBron and it shocked him and made 1 shot and got in his face. You didn't notice Stevenson taunting LeBrons boys in game 6 when he went on a shooting streak in the 2nd quarter? When you are as good as LeBron is, people sometimes tend to lay down. He hasn't realized in the NBA, they don't do that.

Post of the year right here.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Saying it to anyone who would listen, but since Chicago was full of bandwagon Laker fans at the time, no one was trying to hear it. Until it happened.

You ended up right then. Good for you, I guess. And I remember those bandwagon Laker fans all too well. Some never jumped off.

I think Chicago wins, healthy team vs. healthy team.

I respectfully disagree. I did pick Chicago to win the Miami series because I didn't know Noah would be as ineffective as he was, and that Miller and Haslem would even play at all... let alone that well. And it looked like Boozer was recovering from the turf toe at the end of the ATL series. But that didn't stop Boozer from completely botching Game 5. Anyway... I disagree. Hindsight is 20/20 and Boozer is who he is. Like it or not, this is the Boozer the Bulls' front office paid for. He is bound to be at some non-100% condition by the end of the season for the rest of his career barring divine intervention.

I also think DET loses to L.A. in '04- healthy team vs. healthy team.

Ask Kerr, because he was the one that took the punch and I loved Jordan's speech. I don't see what the problem is with what he said.

I loved Jordan's speech. In fact, I love that Jordan was an asshole. And I don't not respect Malone because he was an honorable man and player. Everybody does dumb things sometimes. Nobody's perfect.

The point I was making was that I never hear you criticize Bulls' players (especially on a personal level) but you do for other teams' players all the time. I don't understand that.

What excuse did I make? I'm not blaming the refs, or anything like that. I'm saying the Bulls had chances to in and didn't and also had injuries that no one is excusing them for.

When I pointed to Malone's knee sprain, you labeled that as an "excuse." And you did so despite claiming before that the Bulls were the better team than the Heat and lost because of injuries.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that I was saying that Detroit was going to win the series and they did it in 5 games. How is that being a ****** bag like hou? How is that cocky? Am I only supposed to say the favorite is going to win all the time?

Fair enough (Houf stuff aside).

However, you could have been wrong in your prediction if, in fact, Malone was never injured. Just throwing that hypothetical situation out there...

LA could've beat Detroit if Kobe wasn't in hero mode and they played team ball.

What you are missing is that Kobe is always in hero mode and has been throughout his career. Against tough defenses, he has shown that he cannot do it quite at the level Jordan could. But I don't think that he made mistakes. He was trying to give the Lakers offense. And Shaq certainly got more than his fair share of shots... and minutes.

And no one is giving the Bulls players credit for trying to play through injuries.

If Rodman had sprained his knee, or Grant, the chances are they would not have played at all. Luck has a lot to do with it. Like it or not.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I said that I could and I did say that Detroit would beat LA.

Fair enough.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

The truly great players thrive in these moments. lebron doesn't, he shrinks.

i think its important to make a differentiation of what is and isnt the big stage..

not refuting he has shrunk in the finals

but what about playing well down the stretch and closing against boston and chicago in the playoffs? is that not a big stage?

again..i understand what you are saying..lebron has played below average in the finals..but thats not the only time stakes are high..nor is it,imo, the only field to consider when defining a player

This is where he needs to shine. The big stage. People always say the regular season doesn't mean anything, yet they praise lebron for his regular season empty stat production.

again its important to distiniguish what the big stage is...is it just the finals or does it expand further than that? imo it does...

anyway...i dont think the regular season is necessarily as important as the playoffs..but i do think it is relevant considering in the regular season you are still trying to get to the playoffs with a good record...i wouldnt say his regular season stats are empty...and its not like once lebron gets to the playoffs overall he falls apart...

When he does, then we call him great and discuss his all time position.

"we?" this is YOUR opinion not mine...i think he's "great" by my standards of great...yours might be different

 

[Glide2keva]

You ended up right then. Good for you, I guess. And I remember those bandwagon Laker fans all too well. Some never jumped off.

It was tough being a Bulls fan during those years. Those bandwagon Laker fans made things unbearable around here for a few years. That's why I hate the Lakers.

I respectfully disagree. I did pick Chicago to win the Miami series because I didn't know Noah would be as ineffective as he was, and that Miller and Haslem would even play at all, let alone that well. And it looked like Boozer was recovering from the turf toe at the end of the ATL series. But that didn't stop Boozer from completely botching Game 5. Anyway... I disagree. Hindsight is 20/20 and Boozer is who he is. Like it or not, this is the Boozer the Bulls' front office paid for. He is bound to be at some non-100% condition by the end of the season for the rest of his career barring divine intervention.

I feel you on that. Boozer is who he is.

I also think DET loses to L.A. in '04- healthy team vs. healthy team.

Maybe, but I had Detroit all the way. And I hated both teams, I just hated LA more.

I loved Jordan's speech. In fact, I love that Jordan was an asshole. And I don't not respect Malone because he was an honorable man and player. Everybody does dumb things sometimes. Nobody's perfect.

YOu're right, but he should've let his play speak and not beg for the MVP the way he did.

The point I was making was that I never hear you criticize Bulls' players (especially on a personal level) but you do for other teams' players all the time. I don't understand that.

The Bulls have enough people downing them and tearing them apart. No need for me to do it also. In the NBA world all people do is rip on the Bulls and put them down, tear down our players and never give the team a chance at anything. Why should I add to that?

When I pointed to Malone's knee sprain, you labeled that as an "excuse." And you did so despite claiming before that the Bulls were the better team than the Heat and lost because of injuries.

My point was that the Bulls never get the injury excuse when they have players injured. So i never let anyone have that excuse for other players.

Fair enough (Houf stuff aside).

Thanks.

However, you could have been wrong in your prediction if, in fact, Malone was never injured. Just throwing that hypothetical situation out there.

And I would've lived with that. I'm just glad I wasn't wrong and I always make bold, against the grain predictions, That's who I am.

What you are missing is that Kobe is always in hero mode and has been throughout his career. Against tough defenses, he has shown that he cannot do it quite at the level Jordan could. But I don't think that he made mistakes. He was trying to give the Lakers offense. And Shaq certainly got more than his fair share of shots, and minutes.

It was Shaq's team, he deserved the shots. Kobe didn't want to be #2 and showed it in that series.

If Rodman had sprained his knee, or Grant, the chances are they would not have played at all. Luck has a lot to do with it. Like it or not.

We'll never know though.

Fair enough.

I wasn't being a ****** though. Or at least I wasn't trying to be.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

i agree with alot of this post..though i do think lebron has gotten his fair share of jab in the NBA...he may be used to it..but a combination of that along with the other factors i mentioned may have been too much

ya im not arguing the pistons were a great team..or that the east wasnt a bit weak that year..however...the pistons were 2nd in PPG allowed in the reg season...they were still a good defensive unit....especially with wallace inside...not necessarily a cakewalk for lebron...in a situation where lebron is on like he was..its just hard to stop him period


that may be...but i still think its hard to say definitely that they were confident considering what actually happened in game 1..i'm sure they had some plan going forward..and the delay between 1 and 2 probably helped as well as getting haslem back



mostly agreed...although i think there was a sense that miami could beat boston..

my own doubt about miami beating chicago came from the fact that chicago swept miami in the reg season..no team before miami had beaten a team that swept them in a reg season series in the playoffs...but the reg season sweep had a little to do with the fact that chicago may have been a little more healthy at times coupled with the big 3 still learning their roles and learning how to play together


probably a little hyperbolic..remember dallas was ripping through the western conference..so there was a sense that dallas had a chance..but i agree with the point being made here


maybe maybe not....i think chicago may match up a little better with boston..but thats jmo

i think boston would definitely have had a better chance if rondo was healthy

although rondo didnt play too bad against miami(atleast in one of the games):

game 4:rondo 10 pts,5 ast,38 min,4-7 shooting

game 6: 6 pts,2 ast

i think you have to give the miami d a little credit...although the injury did make an impact...

miami was pretty dominant in the beginning of the series...and maybe if rondo hadnt got injured they would have came back..hard to say

A few points.

1) The pressure was firmly on Boston after they won the first three games against Miami during the regular season, and after that Perkins trade.

And I think LeBron and Wade were already feeling the adversity to get past Boston before the series even started.

And that's much of the reason why Wade and LeBron threw a public slumber party once they finally defeated them. They were motivated to finally get past the Celtics and respond to the people who thought they would lose. Hell, LeBron was so emotional that he even apologized for the first time about how he acted like a ****** in the off-season to the city of Cleveland and said 'this is why I left; because I knew I couldn't do it in Cleveland on my own.'

The Chicago series was also a lot of pressure on the Bulls after sweeping the Heat during the regular season. And a lot of people picked the Bulls. Hell, including the entire TNT crew.

In that series, the Bulls were exposed as the built-to-win-in-the-regular season team which they are. The Bulls are much like LeBron's Cavs in the years where he couldn't get past the Celtics or Magic.

Then... the Finals happened. The pressure was firmly on the Heat... and LeBron fell flat on his face when he needed to be assertive with the series in their grasps.

2) You are right. A BOS-CHI series would have been an epic, intense war. I think Boston would have had a tiny edge though (healthy). Obviously, Rondo being ineffective took that away.

 

[NealKleren]

I voted for Derricks decision making somehow overlooking us needed another playmaker on the voting. But imo it was a combination of things. Our defense wasn't as great as it should have been,Derricks decision making but I think us having another playmaker would have helped Derrick with that and having him not force things or turn the ball over as much as he did at crucial parts of the game near the end,Boozer and Noah not being 100% healthy didn't help either. Hopefully everyone is healthy in the season and we get that extra play maker we need.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

A few points.

1) The pressure was firmly on Boston after they won the first three games against Miami during the regular season, and after that Perkins trade.

And I think LeBron and Wade were already feeling the adversity to get past Boston before the series even started.

And that's much of the reason why Wade and LeBron threw a public slumber party once they finally defeated them. They were motivated to finally get past the Celtics and respond to the people who thought they would lose. Hell, LeBron was so emotional that he even apologized for the first time about how he acted like a ****** in the off-season to the city of Cleveland and said 'this is why I left; because I knew I couldn't do it in Cleveland on my own.'

i agree with most of this post again..but i also feel that there was pressure for miami to excel in the playoffs in correspondence to what happened before the season and during the season

The Chicago series was also a lot of pressure on the Bulls after sweeping the Heat during the regular season. And a lot of people picked the Bulls. Hell, including the entire TNT crew.

In that series, the Bulls were exposed as the built-to-win-in-the-regular season team which they are. The Bulls are much like LeBron's Cavs in the years where he couldn't get past the Celtics or Magic.

even if the bulls were favored..i still think there was some initial pressure on the heat because of the attention they got before and during the season...would the big 3 fulfill their goal and start their quest of getting not 5,not 6,ya you get the point...

and agreed on the bulls...the bulls are more well rounded than that cavs team and not all their issues were/are the same,however neither team had multiple go to guys or playmakers really...boozer if he was healthy but i think he just isnt on that level anymore not to say he isnt good...

thing is..i think if the bulls can make improvements where indicated(or maybe just one or two) they may have a better chance in the playoffs next time

Then... the Finals happened. The pressure was firmly on the Heat... and LeBron fell flat on his face when he needed to be assertive with the series in their grasps.

mostly...and i dont disagree that lebron did not produce when needed..i think his confidence was really shot after game 2 when there was some doubt in his mind as well as other factors....

although one i do credit lebron for is still being overall productive as a rebounder and facilitator..his scoring went down..but he still was ok as a passer(although he did have some TOs)

 

[Glide2keva]

i think its important to make a differentiation of what is and isnt the big stage.

The Finals is the big stage. Everything else is the prelude.

not refuting he has shrunk in the finals

No way you can.

But what about playing well down the stretch and closing against Boston and Chicago in the playoffs? Is that not a big stage?

Not bigger than the Finals.

Again, I understand what you are saying. lebron has played below average in the finals. But that's not the only time stakes are high, nor is it, imo, the only field to consider when defining a player.

That's where we differ. The Finals to me is the one time you know the whole world is watching. I grew up watching magic, Bird, Zeke, Jordan, The Dream, etc. all show up when the stakes were the highest. No one remembers the CF games, but they remember the Finals.

Again, it's important to distinguish what the big stage is. Is it just the finals or does it expand further than that? imo it does.

You're entitled, but for me, it's all about the Finals when you're defining greatness. What do you do when the title is on the line? Do you step up and grab the ring? Or do you wilt and lose? lebron chooses B, every time.

Anyway. I don't think the regular season is necessarily as important as the playoffs. But I do think it is relevant considering in the regular season you are still trying to get to the playoffs with a good record. I wouldn't say his regular season stats are empty, and its not like once lebron gets to the playoffs overall he falls apart.

He does, eventually. You can set your watch by it. Sooner or later he's going to lose in the playoffs.

"we?" this is YOUR opinion not mine. I think he's "great" by my standards of great. Yours might be different

My standards are different. I think if he is being called an all time great now, then you have to judge him differently. For him, it's rings or bust. If he doesn't win a few titles, he will be a "yeah, but..." player.

Guy 1: lebron was such a great player man.

Guy: Yeah, but he never won a ring or showed up in the Finals.

That's where he is right now. He's karl Malone with better number and the same amount of Finals wins. 0

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

The Bulls needed the perfect storm to beat Miami. They depended on far too many role players to beat Miami. And they needed Miami's bench to be a joke.

After Game 1... nothing was going right.

I'm not saying that is the reason they lost the series. But the Bulls are a regular season team. Brewer is not a guy who can give you offense against Miami... Korver is not a guy who can do anything against Miami when they have Wade and LeBron guarding the perimeter. They also needed Gibson to have Boozer's offensive skills. He doesn't.

Brewer was hurt. Noah got more hurt. Boozer was getting a little more healthy but still hurt. Asik got hurt. Rose was playing slightly hurt.

Coaching is what kept the series from being a blow-out each game.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

If you weigh the pressure BOS was feeling, and their injuries... and the pressure MIA was feeling... and the sense of bitterness and a sense of something to prove... it's no big question who had the advantage in that department.

And after the Perkins trade... I think that made the Celtics (perhaps) not want to win as badly as they otherwise would have.

As for the Bulls-MIA series-

the pressure the Bulls were feeling combined with their injuries they were undergoing... and the process of learning to play together for the first time in the playoffs... that must have been harder than what pressure MIA was feeling to not lose.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

The Finals is the big stage. Everything else is the prelude.

in the playoffs overall i think there is a sense of pressure...i think its hard to minimize the accomplishments of a player in the regular season and playoffs but hold a player to the standard of just the finals..

No way you can.

lol..a little definitive

Not bigger than the Finals.

maybe not..but again i think there's a little more to consider in evaluating a player than just the finals

That's where we differ. The Finals to me is the one time you know the whole world is watching. I grew up watching magic, Bird, Zeke, Jordan, The Dream, etc. all show up when the stakes were the highest. No one remembers the CF games, but they remember the Finals.

You're entitled, but for me, it's all about the Finals when you're defining greatness. What do you do when the title is on the line? Do you step up and grab the ring? Or do you wilt and lose? lebron chooses B, every time.

some people who really care about basketball watch more than just the finals as well as remember more than just the final..but i see your point

and again your opinion of greatness is different than mine...but thats to be expected since its a subjective term

again, i think you're being a little definitive here...did lebron play below average in the finals? yes very much so...and in stretches he did disappear..but i also did see lebron take some assertion through being a facilitator and his overall game(he had a triple double in game 5)...so i wouldnt say he has completely wilted...although this finals trend is still rather alarming

He does, eventually. You can set your watch by it. Sooner or later he's going to lose in the playoffs.

thats a little definitive(although not necessarily completely wrong atleast in the present moment)

i think the verdict is still out on james considering this was his first season in miami and he was still learning his role...he's 26 and has plenty of years ahead of him...you wonder if this trend will continue..maybe so maybe not

My standards are different. I think if he is being called an all time great now, then you have to judge him differently. For him, it's rings or bust. If he doesn't win a few titles, he will be a "yeah, but..." player.

Guy 1: lebron was such a great player man.

Guy: Yeah, but he never won a ring or showed up in the Finals.

That's where he is right now. He's karl Malone with better number and the same amount of Finals wins. 0

rings are arguably a very important metric to consider, but there are many many others...

i wouldnt say the finals individually should define a player

i still think even with no title lebron would be a top 15 player(i think he's top 30 right now just with his overall ability,MVPs,and other accolades)

anyway i'm going to quote another part of my post because i think its important":

"i think the verdict is still out on james considering this was his first season in miami and he was still learning his role...he's 26 and has plenty of years ahead of him...you wonder if this trend will continue..maybe so maybe not"

in other words, we really dont know exactly what lebron's future will hold..although up until this year...i wouldnt say he's had a lot of help in the playoffs

does that mean he's always exceled in the playoffs? absolutely not..but he's far from done

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

If you weigh the pressure BOS was feeling, and their injuries... and the pressure MIA was feeling... and the sense of bitterness and a sense of something to prove... it's no big question who had the advantage in that department.

And after the Perkins trade... I think that made the Celtics (perhaps) not want to win as badly as they otherwise would have.

As for the Bulls-MIA series-

the pressure the Bulls were feeling combined with their injuries they were undergoing... and the process of learning to play together for the first time in the playoffs... that must have been harder than what pressure MIA was feeling to not lose.

lol..its the playoffs..of course you want to win...that seems a little ridiculous


i still hold my statement that miami was under a microscope the whole season and playoffs on espn and media overall because of the big 3 and everyone constantly scrutinizing lebron and his predicition and to see whether it came true or not..

its hard to exactly say which teams had more pressure or not..but i feel miami had significant pressure throughout the playoffs

 

[scottiepippen1994]

I'm wondering if the tears and expensive kleenix bill caused buy the Bullys was the main motivation for Miami in the conference finals....Revenge for getting embaressed in the regular season..