What was the biggest reason we lost to Miami in 2011?

[97Bulls]

And I realize I'm relatively new here. And thus have missed the reason for the bad blood between glide and heff. But in my short time, id question some of the things I've read from heff as well as rami. I've never seen "fans" go so far out of their way to discredit their own team they claim they love. And defend the opposition to the point of degrading the contributions of players and holding their team to a standard they clearly don't hold other players to.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I don't think rose and james can be compared fairly. Lest see how well rose does in the playoffs after 8 years like james has had. And with the best team record wise to boot the last few years.

look, the point is we are talking about accomplishments right now...

so,in retrospect, neither lebron nor rose have accomplished much in the playoffs...thats all im saying

frankly we have no idea how the future will play out for rose..it seems likely he'll get a title..but who knows...the future hasnt happened yet therefore it is all hypothetical

 

[97Bulls]

look, the point is we are talking about accomplishments right now...

so,in retrospect, neither lebron nor rose have accomplished much in the playoffs...thats all im saying

frankly we have no idea how the future will play out for rose..it seems likely he'll get a title..but who knows...the future hasnt happened yet therefore it is all hypothetical

I seee your point. Neither has won, but rose hasn't had 8 years either. That's all I'm saying.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

I seee your point. Neither has won, but rose hasn't had 8 years either. That's all I'm saying.

yep, we'll just see what happens..to both lebron and rose

 

[houheffna]

And I realize I'm relatively new here. And thus have missed the reason for the bad blood between glide and heff. But in my short time, id question some of the things I've read from heff as well as rami. I've never seen "fans" go so far out of their way to discredit their own team they claim they love. And defend the opposition to the point of degrading the contributions of players and holding their team to a standard they clearly don't hold other players to.

Yeah, you are new here, which is why you totally misrepresent what I am saying or even what Rami is saying.

Rami and I disagree at times...you know why? Because there is no one set way to get to the destination (championship) and if there were, there would be no need for a damn forum! That doesn't mean we are not Bulls fans. You are a fanboy, I'm guessing, not a fan. You CAN be a fan and have a mature outlook on the league and other players not on your team. I don't kiss ass, not a part of what I do, I give honor where honor is due.

But then again, you and Dick2keva right the rules to fandom, its okay for him to be a Wade fan, but if I am a Lebron fan I can't be a Bulls fan...right?

Its not okay for someone like Rami or myself to take an overall critical, impartial view of Bulls players, their place in history, or even be critical of today's franchise player in Rose...we must not be Bulls fans...but you can have a negative outlook and blame the playoff series loss...on the coach.

Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy here?

 

[97Bulls]

Yeah, you are new here, which is why you totally misrepresent what I am saying or even what Rami is saying.

Rami and I disagree at times...you know why? Because there is no one set way to get to the destination (championship) and if there were, there would be no need for a damn forum! That doesn't mean we are not Bulls fans. You are a fanboy, I'm guessing, not a fan. You CAN be a fan and have a mature outlook on the league and other players not on your team. I don't kiss ass, not a part of what I do, I give honor where honor is due.

But then again, you and Dick2keva right the rules to fandom, its okay for him to be a Wade fan, but if I am a Lebron fan I can't be a Bulls fan...right?

Its not okay for someone like Rami or myself to take an overall critical, impartial view of Bulls players, their place in history, or even be critical of today's franchise player in Rose...we must not be Bulls fans...but you can have a negative outlook and blame the playoff series loss...on the coach.

Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy here?

I can be just as critical as the next fan. But I try to put everything into context. Believe it or not, I like james and wade. But I really don't see any impartiality when it comes to the bulls. You make concessions for james. I don't see the same concessions for rose or any other player associated with the bulls not named jordan.

 

[houheffna]

I can be just as critical as the next fan. But I try to put everything into context. Believe it or not, I like james and wade. But I really don't see any impartiality when it comes to the bulls. You make concessions for james. I don't see the same concessions for rose or any other player associated with the bulls not named jordan.

You see what you choose to see. Where were you when I stated that he was the best pg in the NBA? Where were you when I stated that he was the league's most valuable player and that people were using the wrong arguments to validate his position as an MVP candidate? Where were you when I was absolutely giddy after game 1 against Miami when they beat the Heat in commanding fashion, while other Bulls fans I knew told me I needed to calm down?

And what concessions have I made for Lebron James? I said he was the best player in the league...he still is. I said he was the most talented player in the league and to ever play in the league...I still believe that. Those are not concessions...those are opinions. I am 36 years old. I don't have time to hang posters on the wall and paint my big belly red to show Bulls allegiance. Like I stated before, this is NBA, not wrestling. Vince McMahon can't spell out for me who is the face and who is the heel. I make my own decisions...I am sorry if I don't boo and hiss when Lebron shows up on the screen...I have my own opinions of these players.

I don't think Lebron is the devil he is made out to be and I don't think Rose is the angel he is made out to be. Rose seems to be a nice young man...that's great, but I don't think Lebron is some evil beast either. And please, stop with the 8 years argument. How long was Hakeem in the league before he won? Oscar Robertson? Jordan took quite a while too. As pointed out before, Malone, Barkley, Stockton...never won anything. How long was Garnett in the league before he would win? Hell, Wilt took how long? Those are circumstances. Blaming the player for not winning a championship is lazy analysis. This is NBA, not tennis.

 

[97Bulls]

You see what you choose to see. Where were you when I stated that he was the best pg in the NBA? Where were you when I stated that he was the league's most valuable player and that people were using the wrong arguments to validate his position as an MVP candidate? Where were you when I was absolutely giddy after game 1 against Miami when they beat the Heat in commanding fashion, while other Bulls fans I knew told me I needed to calm down?
I got you bro. Like I said, I'm relatively new here. So whatever was said before the first day I started posting is beyond me. I only respond to what I read.


And what concessions have I made for Lebron James? I said he was the best player in the league...he still is. I said he was the most talented player in the league and to ever play in the league...I still believe that. Those are not concessions...those are opinions. I am 36 years old. I don't have time to hang posters on the wall and paint my big belly red to show Bulls allegiance. Like I stated before, this is NBA, not wrestling. Vince McMahon can't spell out for me who is the face and who is the heel. I make my own decisions...I am sorry if I don't boo and hiss when Lebron shows up on the screen...I have my own opinions of these players.
This whole forum thrives on opinions. I respect yours, other-wise I wouldn't respond to yours posts. I guess when I say concessions, I should've broadened it. But for instance, you don't think james created his own hype? Come on. The excuses you've used for james role in the heats inability to win a championship. These are two off the cuff. I like the way you conveiently neglected to respond to my post as to how lebron has created his own hype.

I don't think Lebron is the devil he is made out to be and I don't think Rose is the angel he is made out to be. Rose seems to be a nice young man...that's great, but I don't think Lebron is some evil beast either. And please, stop with the 8 years argument. How long was Hakeem in the league before he won? Oscar Robertson? Jordan took quite a while too. As pointed out before, Malone, Barkley, Stockton...never won anything. How long was Garnett in the league before he would win? Hell, Wilt took how long? Those are circumstances. Blaming the player for not winning a championship is lazy analysis. This is NBA, not tennis.
Funny you mention these players, but when I try to apply the same standard to scottie pippen, you rebutal and it turns into a 30+ page debate. And to show my consistancy, I'm applying the same argument for rose. As code said, sure neither rose or james have won a championship. But still james has had 8 opportunities to roses 3. So the standards are different. And once again here comes the concession. Why should it not matter that james has had an extra 5 years to accomplish what rose has tried to accomplish in only three? Talk about a head start.

And understand that I don't dislike lebron james. I just expect a lot out of a player that puts himself on a pedestal. And I don't care about what he does off the court, be it baby mamas etc. I didn't care about the whole gambling accusation with jordan. I'm only interested in what they do on the court. This includes james

 

[houheffna]

And understand that I don't dislike lebron james. I just expect a lot out of a player that puts himself on a pedestal. And I don't care about what he does off the court, be it baby mamas etc. I didn't care about the whole gambling accusation with jordan. I'm only interested in what they do on the court. This includes james

I don't get the whole Rose/James comparison anyway...is there any doubt as to who the better player is right now?

Why bring Pippen up in the argument? How many years it takes franchise players to win is an argument Pippen has no place in, since he never spent much time being the face of a franchise. The players I named, maybe with the exception of Stockton, were franchise level players...I don't put Pippen with Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain...and I never will.

As far as James creating the hype? He was in high school!!! The farthest he went in participating in creating his hype is that he was a great player in high school. Whatever tatoos he has and whatever nicknames he had in school had nothing to do with ESPN and national publications giving him pub when he was 15 years old. That is not his fault. The same argument was used against Jordan early in his career, being too flashy, too much hype and hadn't won anything? Yeah, the same thing. Jordan was an instrument in a marketing campaign...that was it. He lived up to the hype but there was criticism along the way, including being frozen out by fellow allstars. People accused Jordan of believing the hype machine...he just wanted to wear a damn gold chain and a fur coat...

As far as me excusing Lebron in the Finals...reading is fundamental...who is the guy who accused Lebron is not being mentally strong enough? Who called Lebron a quitter after the finals? That would be me! Do you want me to dig up the quotes? Because I can...put words in some other person's mouth, not mines.

 

[97Bulls]

I don't get the whole Rose/James comparison anyway...is there any doubt as to who the better player is right now?

Why bring Pippen up in the argument? How many years it takes franchise players to win is an argument Pippen has no place in, since he never spent much time being the face of a franchise. The players I named, maybe with the exception of Stockton, were franchise level players...I don't put Pippen with Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain...and I never will.

As far as James creating the hype? He was in high school!!! The farthest he went in participating in creating his hype is that he was a great player in high school. Whatever tatoos he has and whatever nicknames he had in school had nothing to do with ESPN and national publications giving him pub when he was 15 years old. That is not his fault. The same argument was used against Jordan early in his career, being too flashy, too much hype and hadn't won anything? Yeah, the same thing. Jordan was an instrument in a marketing campaign...that was it. He lived up to the hype but there was criticism along the way, including being frozen out by fellow allstars. People accused Jordan of believing the hype machine...he just wanted to wear a damn gold chain and a fur coat...

As far as me excusing Lebron in the Finals...reading is fundamental...who is the guy who accused Lebron is not being mentally strong enough? Who called Lebron a quitter after the finals? That would be me! Do you want me to dig up the quotes? Because I can...put words in some other person's mouth, not mines.

James didn't create his own hype? Mr. Check my stats, the self proclaimed king, he didn't pull that vid of him getting dunked on by that college player? 90% of his tats reflect how great he thinks he is. How bout the decision? That's all him. I'm not saying that he isn't hyped by different factions, but he greatly contributes to it. Both the good and all of the bad.

And jordan has never propped himself and touted his horn as much or as loud as james has. Even after all he's accomplished. The biggest knock on him was that he was a ball hog.

And I bring pippen into the argument to show the double standard that you use. The same can be applied to your view on rodman, kukoc, grant etc.

 

[houheffna]

James didn't create his own hype? Mr. Check my stats, the self proclaimed king, he didn't pull that vid of him getting dunked on by that college player? 90% of his tats reflect how great he thinks he is. How bout the decision? That's all him. I'm not saying that he isn't hyped by different factions, but he greatly contributes to it. Both the good and all of the bad.

And jordan has never propped himself and touted his horn as much or as loud as james has. Even after all he's accomplished. The biggest knock on him was that he was a ball hog.

And I bring pippen into the argument to show the double standard that you use. The same can be applied to your view on rodman, kukoc, grant etc.

The double standard comes from you, I am equally supportive and critical of players no matter what uniform they have on, especially when it comes to moral issues. I have stated that both Lebron and Pippen have quit on their teams. I don't give a damn what forum this is...I would say the same thing in every forum I visited, because I believe what I believe. Plain and simple...now on to this hype stuff...

Jordan didn't threaten news publications to keep them from writing certain stories? You sure about that? Jordan didn't cultivate an image of himself that was NOTHING like he was behind the scenes? You sure about that?
You know what the difference is between Jordan and James? Jordan's team behind him was much smarter...and Jordan was much more concerned about presentation and was more politically correct...that's the difference.

The hype started before James got into the league...he did nothing but be a great player in high school. The guy was poor...hype offers up millions for him, why wouldn't he take that? I heard that Shaq was overhyped...Kobe...these guys just signed contracts to do commercials and sell products for money. Lebron isn't the only guy in the league with self-aggrandizing tattoos. Half the league has them. The decision was all him...and the media, and I was one of the first on these forums to criticize the decision. The statement you made "both the good and all the bad" is very wrong...you want to blame Lebron for all of his bad publicity? That makes no sense, unless you think all of the piling on has been justified...do you believe that?

And you are talking about what Jordan has never done to toot his own horn? One word for you....halloffamespeech!!! After that speech, soooooo many media people came out and said, "finally people see what Jordan was really about...that is the real MJ." I found the speech horrendous...but it doesn't deviate from my thinking that he is the greatest ever. Nor does Pippen or Rodman's tenure with the Bulls dictate that I should think either is a better player than Charles Barkley was...which neither was.

I have a feeling if Pippen was never a Bull and Barkley was...you would pick Barkley as the superior player...that's subjective thinking...I don't think like that...sorry.

 

[97Bulls]

The double standard comes from you, I am equally supportive and critical of players no matter what uniform they have on, especially when it comes to moral issues. I have stated that both Lebron and Pippen have quit on their teams. I don't give a damn what forum this is...I would say the same thing in every forum I visited, because I believe what I believe. Plain and simple...now on to this hype stuff...

Jordan didn't threaten news publications to keep them from writing certain stories? You sure about that? Jordan didn't cultivate an image of himself that was NOTHING like he was behind the scenes? You sure about that?
You know what the difference is between Jordan and James? Jordan's team behind him was much smarter...and Jordan was much more concerned about presentation and was more politically correct...that's the difference.
I've always known jordan was a total dick. And I'm sure he's covered a lot of mishaps. But he's never, or at least to my reccolection said and done the things james has done. I'm sure he could've covered up punching kerr, when he decided to come out of retirement, he sent out a fax that said "I'm back".

The hype started before James got into the league...he did nothing but be a great player in high school. The guy was poor...hype offers up millions for him, why wouldn't he take that? I heard that Shaq was overhyped...Kobe...these guys just signed contracts to do commercials and sell products for money. Lebron isn't the only guy in the league with self-aggrandizing tattoos. Half the league has them. The decision was all him...and the media, and I was one of the first on these forums to criticize the decision. The statement you made "both the good and all the bad" is very wrong...you want to blame Lebron for all of his bad publicity? That makes no sense, unless you think all of the piling on has been justified...do you believe that?
I blame james for some of the bad pub he's got. He brings it on himself.

And you are talking about what Jordan has never done to toot his own horn? One word for you....halloffamespeech!!! After that speech, soooooo many media people came out and said, "finally people see what Jordan was really about...that is the real MJ." I found the speech horrendous...but it doesn't deviate from my thinking that he is the greatest ever. Nor does Pippen or Rodman's tenure with the Bulls dictate that I should think either is a better player than Charles Barkley was...which neither was.
Lol jordans speech and what james has done are different. He walked up to that podium as the greatest of all time. The most accomplished. And there's no disputing it. James hasn't done a damn thing to proclaim himself the "king".

I have a feeling if Pippen was never a Bull and Barkley was...you would pick Barkley as the superior player...that's subjective thinking...I don't think like that...sorry.
Your entitled to your opinion. But it couldn't be further from the truth. I stated my reason for why I feel pippen is better. Barkley was super-talented. But his work ethic was atrocious. I feel pippen is extremely underrated, he done far more with less than any other great. You feel he should've done more, (amazingly). And this is one of the main reasons why I question your stance. Pippen is a quitter for one fukkin play in your opinion, james has for whatever reason routinely let his team down. And I believe you've labled a loser. But I'm sure the minute he wins a championship, all of those feelings you have for james will be forgotten. And he will take his place in the top 10 all-time on your list.

Like I said, I just don't see any consistancy in your views or is this subjective thinking too?

 

[houheffna]

Like I said, I just don't see any consistancy in your views or is this subjective thinking too?

You damn right its subjective. You don't see the consistency because I don't agree with you. You can deify dudes wearing the red uniform...that's your business. I don't compromise my integrity for a team I root for. I draw the line at that.

Now here is one for you...whether Lebron has quit on his teams is strictly a matter of opinion. Its one thing to play poorly, its another to quit. With Pippen there is no argument...yet you talk about "one fukkin' play"....how many plays do you need? Pippen wasn't passive, he didn't shrink under pressure...he quit! There is no doubt about that. I have yet to see Lebron sit out a play for the same reason Pippen did. And you know what? Pippen says he has no regrets!

Barkley was a productive allstar player damn near his whole career. Trash Barkley's work ethic, but there was no doubt, despite some people trying to tell me he could have been a guard, which is so damn ridiculous its laughable...but he was a top 5 player in his prime and he had no Jordan to lean on...he WAS the man a franchise player that multiple teams tried to build around. And no, his work ethic wasn't atrocious. But your analysis of him is...You don't have a problem with your faulty logic concerning other players? Good grief! There is not a player in NBA history to average damn near 23pts and 12 rebs a game for their career, who ISN'T BETTER THAN SCOTTIE PIPPEN!!!

And if you think Jordan could be a dick because he was the greatest ever...where were you when Wilt was being a dick...to Jordan 20 years ago...did you say he had that right, or did you say he was a bitter ex-player taking shots at a present day superstar? I said the latter, and still feel that way. Jordan being the best in the game doesn't excuse his actions...you just excused his actions because he was the greatest ever...that is not how I view it...but then again, according to you, I am not a Bulls fan...or at least I should be questioned.

And saying Pippen has done "far more with less than any other great" is an eerily inaccurate statement. Less what? Talent? Athleticism? You can use that line on some other young novice who didn't watch Pippen play, but I saw him play and he looked like a natural on the basketball court. Your spreading tall tales about old Bulls players only reveal what your true intentions are. Don't get upset with me for not buying.

 

[Deng Defense Force]

I have no beef with either of you but are you still fighting over the Miami series?

Just agree that you both have different opinions and are never going to agree on this, shake hands and move on.

No need to continue this, you're both good posters so just let this one go and save it for future battles.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

And you know what? Pippen says he has no regrets.

He shouldn't. Tony hit the shot.
If It would of happened differantly, Tony might not of hit the shot and the Bulls would of been down 0 to 3 in the series.
In a way, Pip was the MVP of that game for just sitting down alone, not to mention that Pip carried the Bulls that whole game.....Thanks PiP...:derbulls:

 

[97Bulls]

You damn right its subjective. You don't see the consistency because I don't agree with you. You can deify dudes wearing the red uniform...that's your business. I don't compromise my integrity for a team I root for. I draw the line at that.

Now here is one for you...whether Lebron has quit on his teams is strictly a matter of opinion. Its one thing to play poorly, its another to quit. With Pippen there is no argument...yet you talk about "one fukkin' play"....how many plays do you need? Pippen wasn't passive, he didn't shrink under pressure...he quit! There is no doubt about that. I have yet to see Lebron sit out a play for the same reason Pippen did. And you know what? Pippen says he has no regrets!
Your the one that said james quit. Not me. I think he played bad. Sounds to me like your going back on your word. And to show you I don't always side with the guys in black and red, I feel pippen went about that wrong.

Barkley was a productive allstar player damn near his whole career. Trash Barkley's work ethic, but there was no doubt, despite some people trying to tell me he could have been a guard, which is so damn ridiculous its laughable...but he was a top 5 player in his prime and he had no Jordan to lean on...he WAS the man a franchise player that multiple teams tried to build around. And no, his work ethic wasn't atrocious. But your analysis of him is...You don't have a problem with your faulty logic concerning other players? Good grief! There is not a player in NBA history to average damn near 23pts and 12 rebs a game for their career, who ISN'T BETTER THAN SCOTTIE PIPPEN!!!
Charles Barkley isn't. I wouldn't take that fat butterball over pippen. And pippen was a top 5 player the two years jordan retired too. And I never said he'd be a guard, I said he should've been a small forward. Due to his athleticism.

And if you think Jordan could be a dick because he was the greatest ever...where were you when Wilt was being a dick...to Jordan 20 years ago...did you say he had that right, or did you say he was a bitter ex-player taking shots at a present day superstar? I said the latter, and still feel that way. Jordan being the best in the game doesn't excuse his actions...you just excused his actions because he was the greatest ever...that is not how I view it...but then again, according to you, I am not a Bulls fan...or at least I should be questioned.

And saying Pippen has done "far more with less than any other great" is an eerily inaccurate statement. Less what? Talent? Athleticism? You can use that line on some other young novice who didn't watch Pippen play, but I saw him play and he looked like a natural on the basketball court. Your spreading tall tales about old Bulls players only reveal what your true intentions are. Don't get upset with me for not buying.
Lol come on heff. I was refering to the teams he led in 94 and 95. Let me ask you this question.... I know you feel pippen didn't deserve to be mvp in 94, but do you feel he should've been dpoy in 95?

Please answer my question

 

[97Bulls]

I have no beef with either of you but are you still fighting over the Miami series?

Just agree that you both have different opinions and are never going to agree on this, shake hands and move on.

No need to continue this, you're both good posters so just let this one go and save it for future battles.

Lol his opinion is wrong. I was recruited here to show him the error of his way. And teach him how to be a real bulls fan. His heart is in the right place, we just need to get that motor working.

Just playn heff.

 

[97Bulls]

He shouldn't. Tony hit the shot.
If It would of happened differantly, Tony might not of hit the shot and the Bulls would of been down 0 to 3 in the series.
In a way, Pip was the MVP of that game for sitting down..Thanks PiP...:derbulls:

Pippen doesn't. Need to be sorry for what he did. He more than vindicated himself after that one play.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

100% agreed....Most players would of fell off after that..
Pip was able to pick himslf right back up mentally and never looked back...

 

[Glide2keva]

And I realize I'm relatively new here. And thus have missed the reason for the bad blood between glide and heff. But in my short time, id question some of the things I've read from heff as well as rami. I've never seen "fans" go so far out of their way to discredit their own team they claim they love. And defend the opposition to the point of degrading the contributions of players and holding their team to a standard they clearly don't hold other players to.

:clap: