What was the biggest reason we lost to Miami in 2011?

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Boozer's role in the offense shouldn't have affected Noah's role, because Noah's role was the same regardless. As a matter of fact, his jump in efficiency might have had something to do with Boozer and his role in the offense. I don't believe Boozer took away from Noah's game offensively because Noah doesn't need the ball to affect the offense. He has to rebound most importantly. If he is your best scorer in the front court, you are in trouble. He has to adapt to Boozer's game, not the other way around.

PER is not an infallable formula to measure true efficiency. The problem with this
Noah adapting to Boozer' approach is that Boozer's game is so inconsistent and not dependable. Half of the time, Boozer isn't even much of a low-post scoring option at all. Noah is your young horse and the Bulls need to be committed to his offensive development as a player. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said himself that he believes Noah has potential to be one of the great offensive big men in the game.

Noah and Boozer were used to set double screens for much of the later half of the season. What I believe the Bulls should do is let Noah continue to fight it out on the offensive boards and keep Boozer near the top of the key on the mirrored side of the lane from Noah's. That is the best way to use Boozer and it doesn't take away what Noah does either. And, most importantly, it helps spread the floor.

The other problem with Boozer and Noah out there at the same time is that Noah often moves out to defend the perimeter against guys like Nowitzki and Bosh. Or even LeBron James (who can't burst by a guy like Noah off a standing dribble). That leaves Boozer alone to defend the basket... never a good thing. It would be okay if the guy would use some hard fouls. But he's not that type of player.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I don't think so...lol

You better believe that had a lot to do with it. Detroit was a great team but with every second Malone was off of the floor... or Shaq... and Slava Medvedenko and Brian Cook were in going up against Ben and Sheed... it was death.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I don't think Noah can do MUCH better overall than a guy who won 4 DPOY awards in 5 years. I hope he does, but I am not putting that type of pressure on Noah.

And by the way...Ben was a superior rebounder in his prime...

We are talking about

Player A: The best defensive player
Player B: One of the best defensive players

Player A: Top 2 rebounder in the league
Player B: Top 5 rebounder in the league (nearly the same PER36 as Player A)

Player A: Horrible FT shooter and zero handling skills or post game
Player B: Mediocre FT shooter and one of the best ball handlers at his position and no post game (with all the potential in the world to improve it)

Noah is already a better all-around player than Wallace even though he is probably not a better overall player (when you weigh how dominant Wallace was defensively). Noah needs some pressure to want to improve his offense. He will never be Ben Wallace on defense but he has the ability to surpass what he was simply because he's not an enormous offensive liability like Ben.

 

[scottiepippen1994]

We are talking about

Player A: The best defensive player
Player B: One of the best defensive players

Player A: Top 2 rebounder in the league
Player B: Top 5 rebounder in the league (nearly the same PER36 as Player A)

Player A: Horrible FT shooter and zero handling skills or post game
Player B: Mediocre FT shooter and one of the best ball handlers at his position and no post game (with all the potential in the world to improve it)

Noah is already a better all-around player than Wallace even though he is probably not a better overall player (when you weigh how dominant Wallace was defensively). Noah needs some pressure to want to improve his offense. He will never be Ben Wallace on defense but he has the ability to surpass what he was simply because he's not an enormous offensive liability like Ben.

Ben Wallce couldn't shoot, Noah can..bottom line......And Noah can dribble, run the court quick for a center..Noah is more athletic and is capable of having a decent post up game unlike Wallace...Noah also commands opposing teams to guard him in the paint and outside the paint..Which gives his teamates a better chance at a shot..Plus Noahs a good passer ....Most importantly you can throw the ball to Noah at the end of games unlike Ben Wallace...THE IMPORTANT PART ABOUT THAT IS THAT IF FOULED, NOAH CAN HIT HIS FREE THROWS..CAN WALLACE DO THAT? NO.....rebounding wise, Noah is not that far off from Ben Wallac....And noah can do everything else defensively that Wallace could in a slightly smaller scale....

 

[Glide2keva]

NBA Finals:
The Heat won game 1.
An epic collapse and they lost Game 2.
The Heat won Game 3.
And they were a blown call away from winning Game 4.

If you say so.

It could have been a sweep.

No, it couldn't have.

And I never said it was impossible that the Bulls would beat Miami. I just do not think it is very likely.

Saying they will get abused is the same thing as saying they have no chance of beating Miami.

The Heat WILL get better. So will the Bulls. This is a VERY different scenario than CHI-vs-DET in the early 90's. MIA will get much better before they get worse barring injuries.

And so will the Bulls. Miami has age on the Bulls and the Bulls have a young core and they will only get better.

To say that I, or Houf, are not Bulls fans because we aren't seeing things through a homers' looking glass completely is false.

It's not about being a homer. (Since when is being a fan a bad thing?) It's about supporting the team you're a fan of and not running them down because you're scared of Miami or any other team.

I am a Bulls' fan.

I am seriously calling that into question. But I'll take your word for it.

Houf is a Bulls' fan.

No, he's a lebron fan.

Deal with it.

We are Bulls fans, not wannabe ESPN analysts, deal with it.

 

[Glide2keva]

Thanks Hou.
What's cold is Glide claimed to have ignored Hou.

Other people who I have not ignored, quote the loud mouth and I see his ****** bag posts. That's the only way I see them.

You guys disagree about Lebron. I like you both as posters, but there's no need for swiping here.

Yes we disagree on lebronze (Mr. Empty Stats)

I don't care for Lebron, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't have worshiped him if he wasn't on the Bulls. I would have loved him here.

This is where we differ. I never wanted lebronze here. I want my team to beat his team. No matter where he plays. I'm sick of his hype, and I've been sick of it since 2002. Before he even got in the league.

That said, the reasons why the Bulls lost, is Boozer was empty in game 3, his only big game in the playoffs. And simply, the Heat had Wade and James and we didn't match them.

They act as though the Bulls were blown out in every game they lost, which wasn't the case. Counting the playoffs, their season record was even (4-4).

I feel that the Bulls are capable of beating Miami and will not be "abused by them" for the next 5 years. I feel they will be competing with them, the whole way.

 

[Glide2keva]

Well you done had me fooled with


Sounds like best case scenario to me. xD

Sure read that way to me.

And yes, if the Heat get their act together then we all have a lot to fear. Heck, there was a lot to be afraid of last season alone. Then we went and swept them in the regular season and people started getting overly hopeful. We lose to them in the playoffs with Rose battling an ankle injury, Noah and Boozer playing hurt and way under-performing, Korver in a shooting slump, and no consistent offensive weapon other than Rose and people start cowering before the Heat again.

I was one of the only people that felt the Bulls going in to the regular season could beat Miami. I wasn't scared of them at all.

The Pistons beat the Lakers in 04 with superior chemistry and a lot of good players. We could potentially play that same role. Rose is better than anyone on that Pistons team. Noah can be like Ben Wallace with more offense. Deng and Boozer are like Prince and Rasheed. The only thing we're missing is that SG. That's why I think with a good SG we can beat them. The Lakers in 04 were probably a bit better than the Heat.

THere are still good posters on here. Great post.:clap:

 

[Glide2keva]

PER is not an infallable formula to measure true efficiency. The problem with this
Noah adapting to Boozer' approach is that Boozer's game is so inconsistent and not dependable. Half of the time, Boozer isn't even much of a low-post scoring option at all. Noah is your young horse and the Bulls need to be committed to his offensive development as a player. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said himself that he believes Noah has potential to be one of the great offensive big men in the game.

Noah and Boozer were used to set double screens for much of the later half of the season. What I believe the Bulls should do is let Noah continue to fight it out on the offensive boards and keep Boozer near the top of the key on the mirrored side of the lane from Noah's. That is the best way to use Boozer and it doesn't take away what Noah does either. And, most importantly, it helps spread the floor.

The other problem with Boozer and Noah out there at the same time is that Noah often moves out to defend the perimeter against guys like Nowitzki and Bosh. Or even LeBron James (who can't burst by a guy like Noah off a standing dribble). That leaves Boozer alone to defend the basket... never a good thing. It would be okay if the guy would use some hard fouls. But he's not that type of player.

This I agree with. Noah is a much better offensive player than Ben Wallace ever was. Noah can develop and be effective. And look, there goes Hou running down another player on the Bulls to prop up another player from another team.

Yeah, he's a Bulls fan.

 

[Glide2keva]

Ben Wallace couldn't shoot, Noah can, bottom line. And Noah can dribble, run the court quick for a center. Noah is more athletic and is capable of having a decent post up game, unlike Wallace. Noah also commands opposing teams to guard him in the paint and outside the paint, which gives his teammates a better chance at a shot. Plus, Noah's a good passer. Most importantly, you can throw the ball to Noah at the end of games, unlike Ben Wallace. THE IMPORTANT PART ABOUT THAT IS THAT IF FOULED, NOAH CAN HIT HIS FREE THROWS. CAN WALLACE DO THAT? NO. Rebounding wise, Noah is not that far off from Ben Wallace. And Noah can do everything else defensively that Wallace could in a slightly smaller scale.

Bu, bu, bu, but Wallace won 4 DPOY awards! (mostly by default)

 

[houheffna]

You better believe that had a lot to do with it. Detroit was a great team but with every second Malone was off of the floor... or Shaq... and Slava Medvedenko and Brian Cook were in going up against Ben and Sheed... it was death.

A 40 year old Malone isn't the reason the Lakers lost. I don't think Kobe wanted nothing to do with Shaq because Malone was injured. That wasn't the case. We are talking about a Lakers team that had won 3 straight a couple of seasons before.

To think that Malone is the difference in a series that was dominated by Detroit is over the top quite a bit. Malone was in the final year of his career...for a reason.

 

[houheffna]

Ben Wallce couldn't shoot, Noah can..bottom line......And Noah can dribble, run the court quick for a center..Noah is more athletic and is capable of having a decent post up game unlike Wallace...Noah also commands opposing teams to guard him in the paint and outside the paint..Which gives his teamates a better chance at a shot..Plus Noahs a good passer ....Most importantly you can throw the ball to Noah at the end of games unlike Ben Wallace...THE IMPORTANT PART ABOUT THAT IS THAT IF FOULED, NOAH CAN HIT HIS FREE THROWS..CAN WALLACE DO THAT? NO.....rebounding wise, Noah is not that far off from Ben Wallac....And noah can do everything else defensively that Wallace could in a slightly smaller scale....

Noah commands what?????? They let him shoot whenever he wants to!

There are a lot of players who could shoot who were not allstars. Wallace impacted the game on the defensive end like very few players could in league history. After what I saw in the playoffs, I am nowhere close to putting Noah on that level because he hasn't shown yet that he can impact a game against the very best in the league the way Ben Wallace could.

 

[houheffna]

Bu, bu, bu, but Wallace won 4 DPOY awards! (mostly by default)

You have been exposed as an idiot...over and over again...you bring nothing to the table and you follow everything I say and can't help yourself...

90% of what you say is in response to me and every compliment I receive irks you...get a life...

 

[houheffna]

We are talking about

Player A: The best defensive player
Player B: One of the best defensive players

Player A: Top 2 rebounder in the league
Player B: Top 5 rebounder in the league (nearly the same PER36 as Player A)

Player A: Horrible FT shooter and zero handling skills or post game
Player B: Mediocre FT shooter and one of the best ball handlers at his position and no post game (with all the potential in the world to improve it)

Noah is already a better all-around player than Wallace even though he is probably not a better overall player (when you weigh how dominant Wallace was defensively). Noah needs some pressure to want to improve his offense. He will never be Ben Wallace on defense but he has the ability to surpass what he was simply because he's not an enormous offensive liability like Ben.

Thibs doesn't sit Ben Wallace down in the 4th quarter in an ECF game. He was an offensive liaibilty in the playoffs last season...when it counts. That is what I am talking about. His regression was obvious. I am not going to blame Boozer one bit for Noah's inability to sustain, let alone improve his game on the offensive end.

And you are willing to make the second best player on the team a jump shooter? This is Carlos Boozer, not Horace Grant...I don't think so.

 

[CODE_BLUE56]

Thibs doesn't sit Ben Wallace down in the 4th quarter in an ECF game. He was an offensive liaibilty in the playoffs last season...when it counts. That is what I am talking about. His regression was obvious. I am not going to blame Boozer one bit for Noah's inability to sustain, let alone improve his game on the offensive end.

And you are willing to make the second best player on the team a jump shooter? This is Carlos Boozer, not Horace Grant...I don't think so.

i dont noah or boozer are both void of blame in what happened..they both had some offensive issues which put more pressure on rose

boozer had injuries and his lateral quickness on D suffered as well as his ability to finish inside which made him rather inefficient at times

Noah is just straight up raw offensively...he needs to learn how to produce on offense himself besides clean up...defense and passing are unquestionable but you have to able to finish when given opportunities..especially when you have pretty good size

there are plenty of other reasons the bulls lost though..these thoughts just apply to your response

and the ben wallace noah comparison? really?

ben wallace was the best defender in the league for years..noah is a good defender..but wallace's in his prime completely was game changing in the post..i guess i could see the argument since noah's offense is better than wallace's..but wallace was never expected to be a producer offense nor was he necessarily a liability at times

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

A 40 year old Malone isn't the reason the Lakers lost. I don't think Kobe wanted nothing to do with Shaq because Malone was injured. That wasn't the case. We are talking about a Lakers team that had won 3 straight a couple of seasons before.

To think that Malone is the difference in a series that was dominated by Detroit is over the top quite a bit. Malone was in the final year of his career...for a reason.

The guy had a knee injury that would have caused most players to sit out (and he had to by Game 5). Malone at age 40 was still a damn good player and a lot better than Brian Cook.

The Lakers could have beaten Detroit if it wasn't for Malone being hurt. There's a reason that the Lakers managed to beat the defending champion Spurs in 6 games. And there's a reason that Spurs team won the whole thing when the "Super Lakers" were dismantled the next season.

Healthy- that Lakers team was damn near unstoppable.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Glide- I think you missed the part where I said in all likelihood the Bulls would get abused by the Heat for about 5 more seasons.

That is far from a guarantee that the Bulls will lose.

And you can be a LeBron fan and a Bulls' fan. Houf is a Bulls' fan and you don't have anything to counter that. Being objective doesn't make him not a fan. Your definition of the word seems to be a little warped... look it up in the dictionary before going after people's fanhoods because that's low.

You called mine into question earlier too and I don't appreciate that.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Thibs doesn't sit Ben Wallace down in the 4th quarter in an ECF game. He was an offensive liaibilty in the playoffs last season...when it counts. That is what I am talking about. His regression was obvious. I am not going to blame Boozer one bit for Noah's inability to sustain, let alone improve his game on the offensive end.

And you are willing to make the second best player on the team a jump shooter? This is Carlos Boozer, not Horace Grant...I don't think so.

Regression is not the right word to use. The guy was hampered by injuries in that Heat series and did not have the jump-shot going since the thumb surgery.

Not to mention, the Heat are a great defensive team. When you are going against them, your offense is not going to look as great. Noah's biggest fault was that he seemed to get overwhelmed by his shooting struggles.

And when you have Noah and Boozer on the floor at the same time in a half-court set, you need Boozer up top because Noah is always going to be under the rim battling for offensive rebounds. Occasionally, sure, throw the ball to Boozer in the post and have Noah be the guy at the top of the lane. But Boozer is a good screener/pick-and-roll option and he is a good mid-range shooter. It isn't a bad thing to have him at the top of the lane the majority of the time.

Boozer is not a clear no.2 scoring option on the Bulls. He is not really a clear 2nd best player on this team. Deng and Noah both have solid cases over Boozer.

 

[houheffna]

The guy had a knee injury that would have caused most players to sit out (and he had to by Game 5). Malone at age 40 was still a damn good player and a lot better than Brian Cook.

The Lakers could have beaten Detroit if it wasn't for Malone being hurt. There's a reason that the Lakers managed to beat the defending champion Spurs in 6 games. And there's a reason that Spurs team won the whole thing when the "Super Lakers" were dismantled the next season.

Healthy- that Lakers team was damn near unstoppable.

Malone got hurt in game 2? In game 1 he was healthy...shot 2/9 from the field, and the Pistons kicked the Lakers' ass...in LA. I don't think that trend changes much because Malone is healthy. The Pistons stopped arguably the best player in the league...Kobe Bryant. That is how they would win that series.

 

[DCguy]

The guy had a knee injury that would have caused most players to sit out (and he had to by Game 5). Malone at age 40 was still a damn good player and a lot better than Brian Cook.

The Lakers could have beaten Detroit if it wasn't for Malone being hurt. There's a reason that the Lakers managed to beat the defending champion Spurs in 6 games. And there's a reason that Spurs team won the whole thing when the "Super Lakers" were dismantled the next season.

Healthy- that Lakers team was damn near unstoppable.

Shaq wasn't playing defense on Wallace. Detroit was built to withstand Wallace not scoring but he averaged about 18ppg while every other Pistons player had their average. Karl Malone's presence would not have changed that.

So healthy or not, the Lakers weren't stopping Billups and Shaq wasn't attempting to guard Wallace. I would go with those factors causing the Lakers to lose before Malone's injury.

 

[Glide2keva]

Glide, I think you missed the part where I said in all likelihood the Bulls would get abused by the Heat for about 5 more seasons.

Still, that leaves little to no room for optimism.

That is far from a guarantee that the Bulls will lose.

It's about as close to one as you can make, without actually making one.

And you can be a LeBron fan and a Bulls' fan.

Not to me. That's like being a Knicks fan and a Jordan fan.

Houf is a Bulls' fan and you don't have anything to counter that.

I don't have to counter that. I believe the members of all the other team forums he's a part of thinks he's a fan of their teams too.

Being objective doesn't make him not a fan.

Of course it doesn't, but always taking the other side, calling people homers for taking the Bulls side and running down players on this team to prop up other players, does.

Your definition of the word seems to be a little warped. Look it up in the dictionary before going after people's fanhoods because that's low.

Fan is short for fanatic,, that in itself leaves no room for objectivity. Those guys are observers, not fans. Fans live and die with their team, not tell other fans to be objective and run the team down whenever they can.

You called mine into question earlier too and I don't appreciate that.

I'll apologize to you.