Monta Ellis is not worth Deng or Noah

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Top 10-15 maybe? Ok man...the guy freaking averaged a triple double for a season and almost averaged one for at least 2 or 3 more. He could do anything on the court and for the most part, do it well. He pretty much invented the fadeaway or something like that. That's got to put him in the top 15 let alone the top 5 or 10.

Being an innovator does not automatically make you a top 10 player until time itself ends. Players like Kobe Bryant have passed Oscar Robertson by. Oscar Robertson put up the stats that he did because he had the ball in his hands at all times (scoring and assisting the vast majority of his team's points), playing in a fast-paced era (which inflated his numbers, as well), and playing in an era with much less talent in general than the era's post-ABA merger.

Was he a great player? Obviously. But was he better than Larry Bird (who is arguably a better scorer, passer, and rebounder than Robertson). Bird led a team to three championships in a more competitive era while Robertson has one championship as the second best player on his own team? Robertson sure was not better than Magic or Kareem either.

This claim that Robertson is a top 5 player lock-in is baseless.

 

[Lex L.]

Oscar isn't a top 5 player. People make too much of his stats considering he played during an era where the average NBA player was a 6'5" white guy.

 

[FirstTimer]

Oscar isn't a top 5 player. People make too much of his stats considering he played during an era where the average NBA player was a 6'5" white guy.

Just an awful untrue assertion.

 

[Lex L.]

Joakim Noah has plenty of raw offensive talent that is highly chaotic/non-disciplined. It would take a lot of dedication but Noah could develop a low-post offensive game. He has all of the length and athleticism of a dominant scoring big man.

He is one of the most overrated players in the game today but being overrated in itself doesn't mean you aren't very good. The Bulls defense relies a lot on Noah being on the team. There is a reason the Bulls were a better defensive and rebounding team than Miami last year.

Friedell wrote a piece last night for ESPN about how Noah and Boozer don't fit well together. There's something to this. They each look better when the other isn't on the court...for the most part. Boozer does a lot of dribbling and backing guys down, while Noah hits guys with passes who are slashing to the basket. And the two seem to congest things for the other.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Robertson having the ball in his hands at all times is a valid knock on him because he could not win a championship playing that style. It was a losing style of basketball that takes away from the team concept. When was the last time a Mike Brown style of offense won a championship? It never has. It obviously takes a great player to have any kind of success in a style like that (despite that Oscar did not win a title as a leading man). But a top 5 lock? Absolutely false. And to call someone a "Special person" for simply stating the obvious that Robertson is not a top 5 lock is equally as ridiculous.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Friedell wrote a piece last night for ESPN about how Noah and Boozer don't fit well together. There's something to this. They each look better when the other isn't on the court...for the most part. Boozer does a lot of dribbling and backing guys down, while Noah hits guys with passes who are slashing to the basket. And the two seem to congest things for the other.

This is true. I believe that one of them needs to go (preferably Boozer) if the team is going to win a title. Both are capable of being much more assertive offensive when the other is not on the floor.

 

[FirstTimer]

And to call someone a "Special person" for simply stating the obvious that Robertson is not a top 5 lock is equally as ridiculous.

I wasn't aware I was nominating Oscar Robertson for the "best team player" award.

As for the bolded

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I wasn't aware I was nominating Oscar Robertson for the "best team player" award.

As for the bolded

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

The argument of 'oh em gee. look at Oscar's stats' does not work because it was apart of that losing style of team basketball which allowed Robertson to get those stats in the first place (not to mention the pace and quality of opponents in the era itself).

 

[FirstTimer]

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

The argument of 'oh em gee. look at Oscar's stats' does not work because it was apart of that losing style of team basketball which allowed Robertson to get those stats in the first place (not to mention the pace and quality of opponents in the era itself).

LOL at quality of opponets. Please go review how many HOFer's and Top 50 players played in that era and STFU.

LOL at a losing style of basketball. Robertson played on 4 losing teams his entire career. Also keep in mind the Royals were awful before he got there and didn't have much around Oscar while he was there.

 

[Lex L.]

This is true. I believe that one of them needs to go (preferably Boozer) if the team is going to win a title. Both are capable of being much more assertive offensive when the other is not on the floor.

Perhaps, but in the meantime, I really think Boozer should be on the 2nd unit and play with Asik. It seems like there are more easy baskets when Noah is on the floor because of his passing.

Also, if they're going to trade someone (hopefully Boozer), then it makes sense to look at teams that are at the bottom of the league in rebounding. And then it also makes sense to look at what teams are places where its hard to bring in free agents. Im seeing the Raptors, Pistons, and Cavs.

 

[FirstTimer]

Perhaps, but in the meantime, I really think Boozer should be on the 2nd unit and play with Asik. It seems like there are more easy baskets when Noah is on the floor because of his passing.

Also, if they're going to trade someone (hopefully Boozer), then it makes sense to look at teams that are at the bottom of the league in rebounding. And then it also makes sense to look at what teams are places where its hard to bring in free agents. Im seeing the Raptors, Pistons, and Cavs.

:rolling:

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Perhaps, but in the meantime, I really think Boozer should be on the 2nd unit and play with Asik. It seems like there are more easy baskets when Noah is on the floor because of his passing.

Also, if they're going to trade someone (hopefully Boozer), then it makes sense to look at teams that are at the bottom of the league in rebounding. And then it also makes sense to look at what teams are places where its hard to bring in free agents. Im seeing the Raptors, Pistons, and Cavs.

The most important thing isn't that the starting line-up is Rose-Rip-Deng-Taj-Noah. I think it is most important that is the line-up that ends games for the Bulls. But I am starting to feel the same way as you (that Boozer should start by coming off of the bench).

The bad thing about trading Boozer to one of those garabage teams is that the Bulls will not be able to get much back for him. Boozer is a solid player and helps with the team's depth. Losing him and gaining a Jamison or Bargnani may not help the team much-to-at all.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

Me:

"Being an innovator does not automatically make you a top 10 player until time itself ends."

This statement is 100% true.

And it is not even a bold statement.

Calling it "the epitome of retardation" does not make it true.

There are more than 5 players (considered absurd by FirstTroller) throughout the course of the history of the league who were arguably better basketball players than The Big O.

This is what I consider "the epitome of retardation" - somebody going:

'lolololol you's Special person because you thinks that Oscar not top 5 no matter what'

 

[FirstTimer]

Me:


This is what I consider "the epitome of retardation"

You obviously don't read your posts.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

You obviously don't read your posts.

Troll moar harder.

 

[Lex L.]

The most important thing isn't that the starting line-up is Rose-Rip-Deng-Taj-Noah. I think it is most important that is the line-up that ends games for the Bulls. But I am starting to feel the same way as you (that Boozer should start by coming off of the bench).

Perhaps, but I still think Noah makes other starters better than Boozer. Meanwhile, Boozer can boost the scoring coming off the bench.

The bad thing about trading Boozer to one of those garabage teams is that the Bulls will not be able to get much back for him. Boozer is a solid player and helps with the team's depth. Losing him and gaining a Jamison or Bargnani may not help the team much-to-at all.

I would trade Boozer for Bargnani. He spaces the floor.

But it depends. Let's take a look at Toronto.

Their leading rebounders are:

Bargnani-5.8
Amir Johnson- 6.4
Magloire- 5.0

You could maybe take two lesser players but who cost less money and maybe get Ed Davis thrown in. If you can do that, you'd get a player with upside.

 

[FirstTimer]

Troll moar harder.

***** moar.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

***** moar.

I'm the ***** yet when do you hear me making rebuttals to your posts laced with "Special person" and all sorts of other insults

 

[FirstTimer]

I'm the ***** yet when do you hear me making rebuttals to your posts laced with "Special person" and all sorts of other insults

Calling me a Special person would be a lie, because I don't make Special person posts. You do. I'm stating a fact. You would just be flaming and lying.

I've never accused you of lying.

 

[RamiTheBullsFan]

I never said it wasn't true. What I did say was that it was irrelevant to Oscar Robertson, because he was a great player in his own right. I thought I JUST EXPLAINED this to you a couple posts ago, so I don't understand your confusion coupled by your HORRENDOUS attitude toward other posters on this site.

And I called it the epitome of retardation because you are using his innovative skills as a way to knock Robertson, which is ridiculous.

What I used against Robertson was that he played in a style of offense that was ineffectual in regard to team basketball. That style doesn't win in the biggest games and never has over the course of NBA history. That is a knock and a fair one at that.