OT: Wow!!!..... Justin Fields was out there throwing dimes

[run and shoot]

The true test will be how he performs in Pittsbugh. If he balls out, then Poles is definitely subject to criticism for failing to bring in decent offensive skill players so that he could be fairly evaluated..

Unfortunately for JF, Poles wanted his own Qb. Look at how, Poles got a new experienced OC in Waldron, Poles revamped the OL, Poles brought in solid wr's in Oduze and Kennan Allen.

 

[napo55]

Unfortunately for JF, Poles wanted his own Qb. Look at how, Poles got a new experienced OC in Waldron, Poles revamped the OL, Poles brought in solid wr's in Oduze and Kennan Allen.

The question is whether Poles made a big mistake. TBD.

 

[Penny Traitor]

Unfortunately for JF, Poles wanted his own Qb.

Then why does Ryan Poles trade away the right to take any QB he wanted to in 2023???

I think Ryan Poles wanted Fields to be the guy, until he met Caleb Williams while sitting on the draft pick needed to draft him.

 

[WookieOnRitalin]

His career isn't over.

If a player has not gotten better at the things that are essential to being an NFL QB by Year 4, then it is unlikely they will have much opportunity to be a long term starter in the NFL. Could he be a backup and hang around for awhile? Possibly.

Almost all data also showed we had an awful interior ol mostly due to the center.

Hard to play QB in the NFL when you cant step up into a pocket, cause there is no pocket.

Let's assume your rationale is slightly correct. Let's build up this position. The claim is that the OL is responsible for the pressure. Thus, you associate what percentage of attempt/sack ratio to the pressures created by interior OL?

90%? 100%? 50%?

If you could somehow produce such an association, then you logically deduct the percentage of the sacks from the total and put the rest onto the player.

Here's the rub.

You have to do that for EVERY player you compare him against and can you? Will you? I doubt it. Thus, it makes every player you compare him to look even better.

So let's make a basic assumption. Every player coming into the league deals with pressure from the left, right, and interior. How come some manage to avoid the horrific numbers of Justin Fields? It's not because they were set up better, it is because they are better. Some guys do not make it to game speed.

[insert diatribe about how the organization has failed to set up Bears QBs to succeed and how inept they are]

I think if you stick Manning or Brees on the roster at any point in their careers, they would have put up BETTER numbers than Fields. It's not limited to them, but probably a huge list of players.

Justin Fields is just not one of those players. It's clear. The numbers prove how inefficient he is as a pocket QB. He's inaccurate. Processes slow. Takes too many sacks. By comparison, Mitch Trubisky was a much better QB.

If you can provide me an example where a player who presented as Justin has, using the exact same rationale you are selling here, and show how he ascended once relocated, then I will change my position readily. The problem I believe is that even in the best of examples you may find, they never had the issues Justin had with accuracy or sacks.

Maybe I'm wrong to which I anxiously await your reply.

 

[Moses Moreno]

If a player has not gotten better at the things that are essential to being an NFL QB by Year 4, then it is unlikely they will have much opportunity to be a long term starter in the NFL. Could he be a backup and hang around for awhile? Possibly.



Let's assume your rationale is slightly correct. Let's build up this position. The claim is that the OL is responsible for the pressure. Thus, you associate what percentage of attempt/sack ratio to the pressures created by interior OL?

90%? 100%? 50%?

If you could somehow produce such an association, then you logically deduct the percentage of the sacks from the total and put the rest onto the player.

Here's the rub.

You have to do that for EVERY player you compare him against and can you? Will you? I doubt it. Thus, it makes every player you compare him to look even better.

So let's make a basic assumption. Every player coming into the league deals with pressure from the left, right, and interior. How come some manage to avoid the horrific numbers of Justin Fields? It's not because they were set up better, it is because they are better. Some guys do not make it to game speed.

[insert diatribe about how the organization has failed to set up Bears QBs to succeed and how inept they are]

I think if you stick Manning or Brees on the roster at any point in their careers, they would have put up BETTER numbers than Fields. It's not limited to them, but probably a huge list of players.

Justin Fields is just not one of those players. It's clear. The numbers prove how inefficient he is as a pocket QB. He's inaccurate. Processes slow. Takes too many sacks. By comparison, Mitch Trubisky was a much better QB.

If you can provide me an example where a player who presented as Justin has, using the exact same rationale you are selling here, and show how he ascended once relocated, then I will change my position readily. The problem I believe is that even in the best of examples you may find, they never had the issues Justin had with accuracy or sacks.

Maybe I'm wrong to which I anxiously await your reply.

Who gives a fuck about talking about this endlessly? Justin's gonna play this year and we'll see what he does. I think he's going to take more steps forward and based on training camp reports, he's progressing.

Arthur Smith and Tomlin are HUGE upgrades over Getsy/Eberflus - that's 100% not up for debate.

 

[DefNextYear]

The true test will be how he performs in Pittsbugh. If he balls out, then Poles is definitely subject to criticism for failing to bring in decent offensive skill players so that he could be fairly evaluated..

I wouldn't put that solely on if Fields is good or not. I know this was the subject of debate over and over, which we don't need to rehash, but... just to put it out there, Fields can ball out and the trade could still be successful so long as Caleb isn't a bust. I understand everyone won't agree, and we can all agree to disagree, but it fundamentally then becomes a debate of The Haul™ vs. the QB rookie contract... with a mix of who is better between the two QBs.

Also, not that it matters, but focusing on Fields as the lone factor in the success of the trade just creates a world where Bears fans have to root against him to see value in what they got, and that's a bad mentality to have. Fields can ball out and the Bears can too.

 

[WookieOnRitalin]

Who gives a fuck about talking about this endlessly? Justin's gonna play this year and we'll see what he does. I think he's going to take more steps forward and based on training camp reports, he's progressing.

Arthur Smith and Tomlin are HUGE upgrades over Getsy/Eberflus - that's 100% not up for debate.

The point is that if Fields were to progress it would be quite rare so much so that it has not been replicated at the NFL level as so far as I know. Rehabbing disappointing first round picks is not a common practice in the NFL.

The idea of "camp reports" being anything meaningful is rather silly. No one really puts stock in it outside of hearing things have gotten worse. How many camp heroes have come and gone? How someone looks in camp is not as meaningful until they face guys who want to put them in the dirt who are paid quite well to do just that. Game speed is game speed. Anyone who thinks you replicate that well in camp is misguided.

 

[Moses Moreno]

The point is that if Fields were to progress it would be quite rare so much so that it has not been replicated at the NFL level as so far as I know. Rehabbing disappointing first round picks is not a common practice in the NFL.

The idea of "camp reports" being anything meaningful is rather silly. No one really puts stock in it outside of hearing things have gotten worse. How many camp heroes have come and gone? How someone looks in camp is not as meaningful until they face guys who want to put them in the dirt who are paid quite well to do just that. Game speed is game speed. Anyone who thinks you replicate that well in camp is misguided.

Baker struggled in his last year in Cleveland was terrible in Carolina, got himself figured out in LA and earned a huge contract in Tampa.

Geno Smith was absolutely terrible in New York and just made the pro bowl in back to back years in Seattle.

If you wanna go way back, Steve Young was a mess in Tampa and one of the best to ever do it in SF.

Who gives a shit what you think is possible, he's gonna see the field with a different team and they've been known to be high on him for a long while now. I personally think he's going to tear it the fuck up because I saw the raw talent he had while he was here and the absolutely terrible support system around him. They're going down the unstable interior of the OL path once again this year and the media and fans sure as hell won't be calling for Caleb's head - it'll rightfully so be pressure on Eberflus and Poles.

 

[DC]

Sure there is. It's the same OL as last year except for C and Mooney was open plenty. The excuse is that Poles was still building. Last year was only year 2 including a tear down. Flus blew his coordinator choices but Poles had a personnel plan and it appears to be on course. Some players will get the short end of that. Fields was likely one of those but he could have also performed better/ more consistently.

I'm personally extremely happy Fields is doing well. I hope this plays out great for all involved and Fields has found a home.

Imagine the Bears with an extra 2nd (Carolina), 3rd (Ian Cunningham) and two 4ths (Allen and Fields).

1st
2nd (Panthers)
2nd
3rd
3rd (Cunningham)
4th (Allen)
4th (Fields)

That’s a shit ton of capital. If Poles has determined Allen won’t be resigned and Cunningham is as good as gone, I hope like hell he trades some picks for offensive line talent.

 

[WookieOnRitalin]

Baker struggled in his last year in Cleveland was terrible in Carolina, got himself figured out in LA and earned a huge contract in Tampa.

Geno Smith was absolutely terrible in New York and just made the pro bowl in back to back years in Seattle.

If you wanna go way back, Steve Young was a mess in Tampa and one of the best to ever do it in SF.

Who gives a shit what you think is possible, he's gonna see the field with a different team and they've been known to be high on him for a long while now. I personally think he's going to tear it the fuck up because I saw the raw talent he had while he was here and the absolutely terrible support system around him. They're going down the unstable interior of the OL path once again this year and the media and fans sure as hell won't be calling for Caleb's head - it'll rightfully so be pressure on Eberflus and Poles.

See! Now we're getting somewhere. You took a risk and actually tried to make a comparison. I applaud the attempt.

I feel like Mayfield is an interesting comparison. I would argue that his Cleveland Years were better than Justin's Bears years. I am also uncertain if Baker is a top 15 QB let alone 20. Last year was definitely a redemption season for him. No denying that.

Numbers for those who might care.

Fields:
Accuracy: 60.3%
Pass Yds/Gm: 167/gm
Attempts/Sacks: 7.1
Attempts/INTs: 31.9

Mayfield (Cleveland Years):
Accuracy: 61.4%
Pass Yds/Gm: 235/gm
Attempts/Sacks: 13.45
Attempts/INTs: 34.3

I feel as though Young and Smith are not really comparable at this juncture. Now, if Fields got to sit on the bench for 3-5 seasons and then got back his starting gig, then it would be more comparable.

If we were betting or playing the odds as many do, wouldn't you say that the odds are more in favor of Fields failing than succeeding? Historically speaking, most players who had starts like Fields are not likely to become long term starters in the NFL.

I think the odds favor my position and the best prediction is that Fields will not likely ascend to the level many of his biggest supporters believe he can.

 

[Certified Troll]

Baker struggled in his last year in Cleveland was terrible in Carolina, got himself figured out in LA and earned a huge contract in Tampa.

Geno Smith was absolutely terrible in New York and just made the pro bowl in back to back years in Seattle.

If you wanna go way back, Steve Young was a mess in Tampa and one of the best to ever do it in SF.

Also Jim Plunkett and Rich Gannon. Was going to throw in Geno but you did.

 

[Bearly]

The true test will be how he performs in Pittsbugh. If he balls out, then Poles is definitely subject to criticism for failing to bring in decent offensive skill players so that he could be fairly evaluated..

It's relative. JF can turn out to be VG starter material but CW a step ahead in which case Poles was not wrong. It's the scenario I would most enjoy.

 

[Bearly]

Imagine the Bears with an extra 2nd (Carolina), 3rd (Ian Cunningham) and two 4ths (Allen and Fields).

1st
2nd (Panthers)
2nd
3rd
3rd (Cunningham)
4th (Allen)
4th (Fields)

That’s a shit ton of capital. If Poles has determined Allen won’t be resigned and Cunningham is as good as gone, I hope like hell he trades some picks for offensive line talent.

I still like developing interior O line but that also takes time and some misses. This years' 3rd for instance and we have viable Cs now plus a guy that may develop there as well. IF the Gs can stay healthy( big if, I know), the OL should be OK and hopefully better that next year. It seems everyone forgets the is only 2 years after a tear down.

 

[Moses Moreno]

Also Jim Plunkett and Rich Gannon. Was going to throw in Geno but you did.

We're about to see a halfway decent year from Darnold too.

 

[Certified Troll]

We're about to see a halfway decent year from Darnold too.

Hah...you may be right.

 

[Discus fish salesman]

Imagine the Bears with an extra 2nd (Carolina), 3rd (Ian Cunningham) and two 4ths (Allen and Fields).

1st
2nd (Panthers)
2nd
3rd
3rd (Cunningham)
4th (Allen)
4th (Fields)

That’s a shit ton of capital. If Poles has determined Allen won’t be resigned and Cunningham is as good as gone, I hope like hell he trades some picks for offensive line talent.

Best bears could get for Allen would be a 5th and it wouldn't be until the following year. They'd still have great draft capital though

 

[Bearly]

It's early in camp and many are already drawing conclusions. For instance, Minshew looks great with Getsy calling scrimmages in LA right now. This isn't trying to take anything away from players performing well because that's what they're supposed to do and always appreciated but camps leave a lot of room for interpretation and projection. That holds true for CW as well. We'll know more when he goes against 1s in the pre but until he's schemed against in the regular season and responds, we will not have a great sense of his worth. 1/3rd to 1/2 the season unless he's really special.

 

[Moses Moreno]

See! Now we're getting somewhere. You took a risk and actually tried to make a comparison. I applaud the attempt.

I feel like Mayfield is an interesting comparison. I would argue that his Cleveland Years were better than Justin's Bears years. I am also uncertain if Baker is a top 15 QB let alone 20. Last year was definitely a redemption season for him. No denying that.

Numbers for those who might care.

Fields:
Accuracy: 60.3%
Pass Yds/Gm: 167/gm
Attempts/Sacks: 7.1
Attempts/INTs: 31.9

Mayfield (Cleveland Years):
Accuracy: 61.4%
Pass Yds/Gm: 235/gm
Attempts/Sacks: 13.45
Attempts/INTs: 34.3

I feel as though Young and Smith are not really comparable at this juncture. Now, if Fields got to sit on the bench for 3-5 seasons and then got back his starting gig, then it would be more comparable.

If we were betting or playing the odds as many do, wouldn't you say that the odds are more in favor of Fields failing than succeeding? Historically speaking, most players who had starts like Fields are not likely to become long term starters in the NFL.

I think the odds favor my position and the best prediction is that Fields will not likely ascend to the level many of his biggest supporters believe he can.

Comparing Justin and his play style to other QBs and then trying to extrapolate from there is stupid - dude's in the Mt Rushmore of athletic QBs with Vick, Cam and Lamar so comparing him to straight drop back passers is a waste.

His play style in the second half of last year showed maturity and progress, his play style in the middle half of 2022 showed the absurd ceiling that he posseses. I'm not even arguing we made a mistake by trading him because given the contracts and Caleb's own special skill set - we're afforded a wider window of time to try and set up something special here.

Part of the argument for the haul was that we had serious issues on the OL - Poles hasn't addressed those issues and we'll see how much it impacts Caleb. Justin is in a much better environment now and appears to be thriving - his last two camps he struggled mightily and came out the gate pretty poorly only to find his stride in the middle of the year. Personally I think he's going to win that job and lead the Steelers to the playoffs.

 

[Black Rainbow]

If you can't throw from the pocket consistently, it doesn't matter how athletic you are. Some ppl cannot accept that.

 

[Moses Moreno]

If you can't throw from the pocket consistently, it doesn't matter how athletic you are. Some ppl cannot accept that.

If you can't hold a pocket for a QB consistently, it doesn't matter how good your weapons on the outside are or what the pedigree of your QB is.